I just received a call from a Force owner that is not on this list who's car
just died.  She was driving it along and is shuttered and then made a
grinding metal noise and came to a stop.  She can turn the power on and
everything seems to work but when she gives it power, she hears the metal
crunching sound.

It sounds like a reduction gear problem to me.  It is too bad because she
has only had the car a few months and one of the selling points was how
reliable it is.  Anyone have any suggestions for next steps?


-Will

Will Beckett
Beckett PC Solutions
4189 Baker Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306-3908

(650) 269-7011 cell
(650) 494-6922 phone/fax
mailto:will@...
http://beckettpcsolutions.com <http://beckettpcsolutions.com/>

"Let me make it easy for you!"

a Business Network Int'l member http://www.paloaltobni.com
<http://www.paloaltobni.com/>

a member of the Palo Alto Chamber of Commerce http://www.paloaltochamber.com
<http://www.paloaltochamber.com/>

Support the arts, subscribe to West Bay Opera http://www.wbopera.org
<http://www.wbopera.org/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That almost sounds like what my second Force was like when I got it.  Mine
would make awful crunching noises when pushed by hand, but when you applied
power it just made faint motor noises.  The motor was spinning but not
connected any more.  Solectria built a new gearbox for around $1200 if I
recall correctly, but when it arrived it didn't match up to my motor.  I
shipped the motor and gearbox back to Solectria, where they found the motor
was damaged as well.  They then mounted a used motor and checked out the
whole assembly and shipped it back.  It is now in the car and purring along
nicely.

My suggestion would be stop even messing with it to prevent further damage,
pull the motor-gearbox assembly and ship it back to Solectria.  I am sure
they will be able to sort it out, but it might cost a bit.  On the other
hand, the cars are worth it.

BTW, when I first spoke to Solectria about mine they seemed surprised as if
a gearbox failure was unheard of.

Thanks,

Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

I had heard of belt failures but never gear box failures.  I'll let her
know.  We will need to find someone that can take the motor assembly out of
the car for her.  She will not be able to do it.  Thanks for sharing.


-Will

Will Beckett
Beckett PC Solutions
4189 Baker Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306-3908

(650) 269-7011 cell
(650) 494-6922 phone/fax
mailto:will@...
http://beckettpcsolutions.com <http://beckettpcsolutions.com/>

"Let me make it easy for you!"

a Business Network Int'l member http://www.paloaltobni.com
<http://www.paloaltobni.com/>

a member of the Palo Alto Chamber of Commerce http://www.paloaltochamber.com
<http://www.paloaltochamber.com/>

Support the arts, subscribe to West Bay Opera http://www.wbopera.org
<http://www.wbopera.org/>



   _____

From: Mike Chancey [mailto:evtinker@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:07 PM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [force_ev] She's dead Jim!


That almost sounds like what my second Force was like when I got it.  Mine
would make awful crunching noises when pushed by hand, but when you applied
power it just made faint motor noises.  The motor was spinning but not
connected any more.  Solectria built a new gearbox for around $1200 if I
recall correctly, but when it arrived it didn't match up to my motor.  I
shipped the motor and gearbox back to Solectria, where they found the motor
was damaged as well.  They then mounted a used motor and checked out the
whole assembly and shipped it back.  It is now in the car and purring along
nicely.

My suggestion would be stop even messing with it to prevent further damage,
pull the motor-gearbox assembly and ship it back to Solectria.  I am sure
they will be able to sort it out, but it might cost a bit.  On the other
hand, the cars are worth it.

BTW, when I first spoke to Solectria about mine they seemed surprised as if
a gearbox failure was unheard of.

Thanks,

Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I jut had a second thought on this.  You might want to also check the CV
joints.  It is rare, but I have heard of a CV joint failing (though not on
an EV) and allowing the shaft to spin inside the joint.  That would make a
heck of a noise and the car would not move.

Thanks,

Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Electro Automotive [mailto:electro@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 2:41 PM
To: Will Beckett, Silicon Valley EAA
Subject: Solectria Drive Systems Now Available for Consumer Conversions
Through Electro Automotive

Solectria Corporation and Electro Automotive have today announced an
agreement designating Electro Automotive as the exclusive U.S. distributor
for Solectria drive systems to the consumer level conversion market.

"We are very pleased to be associated with Solectria," said Mike Brown,
founder of Electro Automotive.  "These systems will allow us to bring
electric cars to a broader range of users, a market that is not being
addressed by any other source.  We can now offer systems for vehicles up to
5,000 lbs. curb weight, using standard transmissions or direct drive, and
providing regenerative braking."

Solectria AC drive systems will be offered by Electro Automotive directly to
consumers for the conversion of gas or diesel vehicles to clean electric
power.  These systems have been offered by Solectria for several years,
primarily to fleets, as installations in the Solectria Force (using a Geo
Metro chassis), and as individual components or drive systems in many other
small EVs.  "We have always had a goal of getting EVs in the hands of the
largest number of people possible.  We see Electro Automotive as an
excellent partner to help achieve this goal through the growing EV
consumer-builder market," said James Worden, Solectria CEO.

Electro Automotive, of Felton, California, has been offering DC drive
conversion systems to the consumer for compact cars and pickups since 1979,
and is a leading supplier to the home conversion market.  Mike Brown's book,
"Convert It", is considered the definitive how-to manual.  The addition of
the Solectria systems will be their first venture into AC drives.

Solectria Corporation, of Woburn, Massachusetts, is a world leader in the
development and manufacturing of a wide range of components for electric,
hybrid, and fuel cell vehicles, and for the distributed generation of
electric power. Solectria also provides comprehensive engineering services
for electric drivetrain design and integration. Over 2000 vehicles worldwide
-- including cars, trucks, buses, and industrial machines -- rely on
Solectria's proprietary drive system technology.

# # #

For more information on Solectria Corporation, visit
http://www.solectria.com
Media contact: Mark Federle, Solectria Corporation, tel 781-932-7455, email
federle@...

For more information on Electro Automotive, visit http://www.electroauto.com
Media contact Shari Prange, Electro Automotive, tel 831-429-1994, email
electro@...

Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com electro@...
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979

EVLN(EAA tells SF KPIX ch5 TV plug-in hybrids are better)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://cbs5.com/news/local/2004/05/17/Rising_Gas_Prices_Fuel_Demand_for_Hybrid_C\
ars.html
Rising Gas Prices Fuel Demand for Hybrid Cars
Sue Kwon
Watch the Video [
http://kpix.dayport.com/viewer/content/special.php?Art_ID=1979&Format_ID=2&BitRa\
te_ID=8&Contract_ID=15
  Best viewed with msie 6 with wmp 9, commercial first calls large
  dat file, those on skinny modem set buffering to max]

Rising gas prices and better technology are fueling demand for
hybrid cars.

Tom Price of Marin Toyota can't keep them in stock. There's a
four-month wait list for the Toyota Prius and he gets at least three
new orders a day at his two Bay Area dealerships.

"In Northern California, there are 3200 orders and they won't be
filled until next year," Price said.

A hybrid car uses electrical power during acceleration at low speeds
around town and uphill driving. A gas engine kicks in at higher
highway speeds. Toyota and Honda have been producing them for three
years, with slow acceptance until now. The new models are more
roomy, and priced a few thousand dollars lower at about $20,000.

The Prius gets about 60 miles per gallon in the city. The comparable
Toyota Camry gets 32 miles per gallon. One tank in a Prius holds 11
gallons. At $2 per gallon, that's $22 to fill up, but it will take
you up to 660 miles -- twice as far as you'd make it in a standard
compact car.

Californians drive 20,000 hybrids now. In four years, that number is
expected to increase to more than 110,000. But that's still just a
fraction of the 1.5 million cars sold in the state each year.

Will Beckett of the Electric Auto Association says several big motor
companies like GM and Nissan are not responding to consumer demand.

"As long as they can keep gas cars in the mix, they don't have to
change the tooling of the cars and they make more profits," Beckett
said.

Beckett drives an all-electric car, and would like to see automakers
take the hybrid ones one step further in fuel efficiency by adding a
charger and plug.

"If we can make them plug in hybrids, we can prove to people that
they only drive 40 miles a day and can rely on battery electric
solely for 80% of trips," he said.

The Electric Auto Association wants lawmakers to pass a bill
offering tax credits for consumers buying hybrids. Congress is
considering several. Meantime, Governor Schwarzenegger is endorsing
new legislation that would allow solo drivers to use the car pool
lane if they are in certain types of hybrid cars.

In the next five years, consumers will have at least 30 new models
to chose from, including the first hybrid SUV from Ford and more
from Toyota.

"This fall, Lexus will bring out an SUV, and next spring, Toyota
will bring out a hybrid Highlander sport utility," Price said.

But wait lists for those new models are already filling up.
» 05-17-2004 ©MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved
-




=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains – Claim yours for only $14.70/year
http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer

Hey,
This is my first time on the board. I've looked at the other
messages and didn't find a match to my problem.
On my 1992 Geo metro Force, which I've had for three months, this
morning the charger was not working it was cycling on the high rate
and not engaging.
Any Ideas?
Bouty Baldridge
Wilmington, NC

In conjunction with Canadian Environment Week and clean air
activities across Canada, VEVA (The Vancouver Electric Vehicle
Association) presents REV!2004. REV means Ride Electric Vehicles
and that's what you will be able to do at this Saturday June 5th
event! http://www.veva.bc.ca/rev/2004/

The 9th annual REV Show will be held on Saturday, June 5th, 2004
in Vancouver at the north foot of Ontario Street, on the Indy
track just south of Science World
Featuring:
http://www.veva.bc.ca/rev/2004/featuring.htm

The Electric Auto Association of which VEVA is a member, will be
hosting an International EV Conference at Science World Sunday,
June 6 in conjunction with REV!2004. There is a nominal
admission charge for Sunday's event.
http://www.veva.bc.ca/EAAconf2004/

For those that can not 'get away' to attend, the page has
webcast instructions:
Get a Yahoo Instant Messenger account (standard Yahoo Group/Yahoo
Email/etc account http://messenger.yahoo.com ).
Install YIM on your PC/MAC/unix, and send a request through YIM to
get added to ID   eaaevent   You will be notified when the
conference is beginning and you can join for Chat/Audio/Webcam
viewing and/or participation.
(The new YIM 6 is much better than previous versions)





=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/

I am selling one of my Force cars on E-Bay for anyone that is interested. Item
number 2482757119.  I will still have three Force and 5 other EVs when done.

Stephen Taylor



---------------------------------
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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anybody have any suggestions for Peter?  I don't have any UMOC docs,
just those for the Brusa controllers.

-Tom

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:  Solectria motor controller
Date:  Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:26:07 +0930
From:  Peter Pudney <Peter.Pudney@...>
To:  tomhudson@...



Tom,

I found your address on the Solectria Owners website.

The University of South Australia has recently been given a Solectria
DW (NiHM batteries). Unfortunately, the motor controller is "disabled",
and we have been unable to work out why. Solectria has given me
passwords for the UMOC and DAQ, and we have have been able to do some
tests, but Solectria have not replied to my emails for several weeks.
Do you know of any Solectria owners that might be able to help be
diagnose the problem with the car? In particular, I am after
information about the signals on the 25-pin connector to the UMOC.

There is some information about some previous testing we did with the
car here:

	 http://scg.levels.unisa.edu.au/Gerard_EV/



Peter

http://people.unisa.edu.au/Peter.Pudney

The direct link is
http://search.ebay.
com/solectria-electric_W0QQsokeywordredirectZ1QQfromZR8

Hi All
I am new to this forum with a red 97 Force.

My question is: what is the cost to charge the batteries?  A vague
question indeed, but I am living in a condomium and charging in my
carport which is supplied with electricity by the HOA.  Is it
necessary to acquire a PG&E meter or is there a reasonable monthly
figure I can  pay to keep my neighbors happy.  They all like my EV (6
out of 30 neighbors drive hybrids) but don't want to be subsidizing
me.

Additional details: charging is at 110volts until I can arrange to
install 220v.  I charge at every opportunity 220v mostly, but my
average charge away from home is 10 miles away, so there is generally
10.00 aH showing on the dashboard display when I charge.
thanks,
Joel

Here is a rough and ready way to calculate this.  Make the assumption that
you get 3 miles per KWH (that will be pretty close to your actual).  Now
your cost will be Mile/3 * cost per KWH.

Let's say you drive an average of 500 miles per month from the charges you
do at home, and that you HOA is paying $.10 per KWH then you would owe them

500/3 * 0.1 = $16.67

I think that doing a calculation like that, then perhaps rounding up to $20
would make the HOA happy.


   _____

From: joelmeyn [mailto:joelmeyn@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:23 AM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [force_ev] charging costs


Hi All
I am new to this forum with a red 97 Force.

My question is: what is the cost to charge the batteries?  A vague
question indeed, but I am living in a condomium and charging in my
carport which is supplied with electricity by the HOA.  Is it
necessary to acquire a PG&E meter or is there a reasonable monthly
figure I can  pay to keep my neighbors happy.  They all like my EV (6
out of 30 neighbors drive hybrids) but don't want to be subsidizing
me.

Additional details: charging is at 110volts until I can arrange to
install 220v.  I charge at every opportunity 220v mostly, but my
average charge away from home is 10 miles away, so there is generally
10.00 aH showing on the dashboard display when I charge.
thanks,
Joel



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If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying or
distribution of this message or attachment is strictly prohibited.  If you
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Noel's calculation is a good, easy way to do this.

Don't charge on 110 vac for too long.  It is very hard on the charger.  The
110vac option is not intended to be the primary charge mode.  There is
evidence that it causes stress on the charger.  Get the 220 vac in as soon
as possible.


-Will

Will Beckett
Beckett PC Solutions
4189 Baker Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306-3908

(650) 269-7011 cell
(650) 494-6922 phone/fax
mailto:will@...
http://beckettpcsolutions.com <http://beckettpcsolutions.com/>

"Let me make it easy for you!"

a Business Network Int'l member http://www.paloaltobni.com
<http://www.paloaltobni.com/>

a member of the Palo Alto Chamber of Commerce http://www.paloaltochamber.com
<http://www.paloaltochamber.com/>

Support the arts, subscribe to West Bay Opera http://www.wbopera.org
<http://www.wbopera.org/>



   _____

From: joelmeyn [mailto:joelmeyn@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:23 AM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [force_ev] charging costs


Hi All
I am new to this forum with a red 97 Force.

My question is: what is the cost to charge the batteries?  A vague
question indeed, but I am living in a condomium and charging in my
carport which is supplied with electricity by the HOA.  Is it
necessary to acquire a PG&E meter or is there a reasonable monthly
figure I can  pay to keep my neighbors happy.  They all like my EV (6
out of 30 neighbors drive hybrids) but don't want to be subsidizing
me.

Additional details: charging is at 110volts until I can arrange to
install 220v.  I charge at every opportunity 220v mostly, but my
average charge away from home is 10 miles away, so there is generally
10.00 aH showing on the dashboard display when I charge.
thanks,
Joel



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter,
I too have a NiMH Force 4 door (1996 model).  I have converted to PbA,
however I still have all the original paperwork.  I'll check to see if I
have information about the signals on the 25-pin connector to the UMOC.
I'll let you know what I can find.
I have always gotten good response from Solectria every time I have called
them.  Maybe a telephone call would be the method to try.
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, Missouri
913-789-0889 home

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Hudson [mailto:tomhudson@...]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:54 PM
To: Force Mailing List
Subject: [force_ev] [Fwd: Solectria motor controller]

Anybody have any suggestions for Peter?  I don't have any UMOC docs,
just those for the Brusa controllers.

-Tom

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        Solectria motor controller
Date:   Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:26:07 +0930
From:   Peter Pudney <Peter.Pudney@...>
To:     tomhudson@...



Tom,

I found your address on the Solectria Owners website.

The University of South Australia has recently been given a Solectria
DW (NiHM batteries). Unfortunately, the motor controller is "disabled",
and we have been unable to work out why. Solectria has given me
passwords for the UMOC and DAQ, and we have have been able to do some
tests, but Solectria have not replied to my emails for several weeks.
Do you know of any Solectria owners that might be able to help be
diagnose the problem with the car? In particular, I am after
information about the signals on the 25-pin connector to the UMOC.

There is some information about some previous testing we did with the
car here:

         http://scg.levels.unisa.edu.au/Gerard_EV/



Peter

http://people.unisa.edu.au/Peter.Pudney









Yahoo! Groups Links

If you telephone Solectria don't just leave a number, keep trying.  Kevin, at
Solectria, said that was the best way, just keep calling until you get him.  I
have never had much luck using E-Mail with Solectria.

Stephen Taylor

Don Buckshot <buckshot@...> wrote:
Peter,
I too have a NiMH Force 4 door (1996 model).  I have converted to PbA,
however I still have all the original paperwork.  I'll check to see if I
have information about the signals on the 25-pin connector to the UMOC.
I'll let you know what I can find.
I have always gotten good response from Solectria every time I have called
them.  Maybe a telephone call would be the method to try.
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, Missouri
913-789-0889 home

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Hudson [mailto:tomhudson@...]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:54 PM
To: Force Mailing List
Subject: [force_ev] [Fwd: Solectria motor controller]

Anybody have any suggestions for Peter?  I don't have any UMOC docs,
just those for the Brusa controllers.

-Tom

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        Solectria motor controller
Date:   Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:26:07 +0930
From:   Peter Pudney <Peter.Pudney@...>
To:     tomhudson@...



Tom,

I found your address on the Solectria Owners website.

The University of South Australia has recently been given a Solectria
DW (NiHM batteries). Unfortunately, the motor controller is "disabled",
and we have been unable to work out why. Solectria has given me
passwords for the UMOC and DAQ, and we have have been able to do some
tests, but Solectria have not replied to my emails for several weeks.
Do you know of any Solectria owners that might be able to help be
diagnose the problem with the car? In particular, I am after
information about the signals on the 25-pin connector to the UMOC.

There is some information about some previous testing we did with the
car here:

         http://scg.levels.unisa.edu.au/Gerard_EV/



Peter

http://people.unisa.edu.au/Peter.Pudney









Yahoo! Groups Links








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I will echo Will's advice.  Don't charge on the 110
for too much longer.  I killed my first charger by
using too much 110.  I had to replace it with a new
one from Solectria that cost $2-3K.  Not good.  Put
down the money and have a 220 outlet installed ASAP.

Peter
'99 Blue Force
Palo Alto, CA

--- Will Beckett <will@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Noel's calculation is a good, easy way to do this.

Don't charge on 110 vac for too long.  It is very hard
on the charger.  The
110vac option is not intended to be the primary charge
mode.  There is
evidence that it causes stress on the charger.  Get
the 220 vac in as soon
as possible.


-Will

Will Beckett
Beckett PC Solutions
4189 Baker Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306-3908

(650) 269-7011 cell
(650) 494-6922 phone/fax
mailto:will@...
http://beckettpcsolutions.com
<http://beckettpcsolutions.com/>

"Let me make it easy for you!"

a Business Network Int'l member
http://www.paloaltobni.com
<http://www.paloaltobni.com/>

a member of the Palo Alto Chamber of Commerce
http://www.paloaltochamber.com
<http://www.paloaltochamber.com/>

Support the arts, subscribe to West Bay Opera
http://www.wbopera.org
<http://www.wbopera.org/>



   _____

From: joelmeyn [mailto:joelmeyn@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:23 AM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [force_ev] charging costs


Hi All
I am new to this forum with a red 97 Force.

My question is: what is the cost to charge the
batteries?  A vague
question indeed, but I am living in a condomium and
charging in my
carport which is supplied with electricity by the HOA.
  Is it
necessary to acquire a PG&E meter or is there a
reasonable monthly
figure I can  pay to keep my neighbors happy.  They
all like my EV (6
out of 30 neighbors drive hybrids) but don't want to
be subsidizing
me.

Additional details: charging is at 110volts until I
can arrange to
install 220v.  I charge at every opportunity 220v
mostly, but my
average charge away from home is 10 miles away, so
there is generally
10.00 aH showing on the dashboard display when I
charge.
thanks,
Joel



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Terms of Service.

This is very dicouraging. My charger developed a tick. I thought
that I could get it repaired. It is so old that there is no
information on it. Solectria has no more chargers in stock. They
sent me to Brusa, any one out there price a new charger lately? Over
$5,000. What in the world is going on? Obviously the car is useless
without a charger but I can't invest another $5000 after already
investing as much to get the car and new batteries up and running.
Maybe the ICE people know something we EV's don't. Long story short
Are there any reasonable chargers to be had? Please help me.

Bouton Baldridge

Solectria has been selling an alternative charger that they make.  Do they
not have those anymore?  If not there are other options, including the
PFC-50 or PFC-20, see below

PFC-20.

Overall URL is:  <http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm>
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm

I used this in my Force and the only problem is that it is not isolated so
you don't want to touch it while it is plugged in.


-Will

Will Beckett
Beckett PC Solutions
4189 Baker Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306-3908

(650) 269-7011 cell
(650) 494-6922 phone/fax
mailto:will@...
http://beckettpcsolutions.com <http://beckettpcsolutions.com/>

"Let me make it easy for you!"

a Business Network Int'l member http://www.paloaltobni.com
<http://www.paloaltobni.com/>

a member of the Palo Alto Chamber of Commerce http://www.paloaltochamber.com
<http://www.paloaltochamber.com/>

Support the arts, subscribe to West Bay Opera http://www.wbopera.org
<http://www.wbopera.org/>



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From: cfrkeepr [mailto:cfrkeepr@...]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 11:25 AM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [force_ev] Any priced chargers?


This is very dicouraging. My charger developed a tick. I thought
that I could get it repaired. It is so old that there is no
information on it. Solectria has no more chargers in stock. They
sent me to Brusa, any one out there price a new charger lately? Over
$5,000. What in the world is going on? Obviously the car is useless
without a charger but I can't invest another $5000 after already
investing as much to get the car and new batteries up and running.
Maybe the ICE people know something we EV's don't. Long story short
Are there any reasonable chargers to be had? Please help me.

Bouton Baldridge



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anion.yahoo.com> click here

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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, cfrkeepr wrote:

> Are there any reasonable chargers to be had? Please help me.

When I needed a new charger three years ago, I was tempted to try building
my own. But I ended up buying a Zivan NG-3; it was under a thousand
dollars. I don't know if it is still available, but the user's manual
lists two U.S. dealers:

Electric Conversions
215 14th Street
Sacramento, CA 95814
(916) 441-4161

Zapi Inc.
6220 Angus Drive Street 102
Raleigh, NC 27613
(919) 789-4588


Rob Landry
umarc@...

About a month ago I sent my charger to Chuck Connors at Solectria for repair
and during the time it was there he offered to sell me one BC3300 for $2500,
down from their list price of about $3500. I wonder if they sold it since
then.
During the time the charger was away, I used a Fair Radio charger
temporarily.  No problems with it.
Don

-----Original Message-----
From: cfrkeepr [mailto:cfrkeepr@...]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 1:25 PM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [force_ev] Any priced chargers?

This is very dicouraging. My charger developed a tick. I thought
that I could get it repaired. It is so old that there is no
information on it. Solectria has no more chargers in stock. They
sent me to Brusa, any one out there price a new charger lately? Over
$5,000. What in the world is going on? Obviously the car is useless
without a charger but I can't invest another $5000 after already
investing as much to get the car and new batteries up and running.
Maybe the ICE people know something we EV's don't. Long story short
Are there any reasonable chargers to be had? Please help me.

Bouton Baldridge





Yahoo! Groups Links

Have you tried EVParts.com?  They list the Zivan NG3 in both 120 VAC and
220 VAC models for $879 and the larger NG5 for $1230.  I use the larger NG5
model in my Civic conversion, and after 5 years it is still going
strong.  I don't think the charging algorithm is quite as good as the
Solectria/Brusa unit, but it does the job.  If you get one, be sure to get
the temp sensor and compensation option.  Without it you can easily have a
battery destroying thermal runaway event.

I have been halfway wondering about the idea of adding an NG5 to my Force,
the charge times would be cut almost in half, but I am a little afraid of
damaging the batteries.  Besides, the existing chargers seem to do well enough.

Thanks,

Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.ht

Greetings all:

I am a new member and am in the process of upgrading my 1992
Solectria Force to a Brusa AMC 320 controller.  It originally
had an AMC300.

The main issue seems to be converting the conectors that
go to the controllers.

The original controller had a 26 pin 3M type ribbon cable
connector and the AMC320 has a DBM-25 style.

The Speed sensor also changed from a 10 pin 3M style ribbon
to a DBM-9 style.

I am also in the process of building a communication cable
with RS-422 to RS-232 conversion.  The DBM-15 plugs into
the controller while the DBM-9 plugs into the laptop.

Everything is looking good except that the parts for the RS-422 to
RS-232 conversion have not yet arrived.  Other than that, I
am about ready to plug everything in.

Here are my questions:

1)  Has anyone else done this conversion before?

2)  I am following the schematics in the Brusa manuals.
Is there anything else I should know about?

3)  Is there any special programming in the controller
that MUST be down before I attempt to drive it?
(I might get tired waiting for those parts.)

4)  I have been taking pictures and notes of my progress.
Is anyone interested in them?  (Assuming the car runs)

Thank you,
Gary Carlson

Sounds like a cool project, Gary.  If you want to put up photos and
other information about the conversion, I'll be happy to post it on my
Solectria owner's website (www.portev.org/solectria/).  Let me know!

Sounds like you have about everything covered, just be sure that the
programming in the controller matches the motor you are using.  Seems to
me there are some important parameters you need to have programmed into
the controller, such as motor frequency.  Just double-check what's on
the motor's plate and be sure the controller is set to the same thing.

The only other thing I can think of is the controller's settings for
battery protection -- Be sure the "brown-out" voltage is set to
something appropriate for your battery pack voltage.  Setting it too
high can result in an early loss of power as you drive; setting it too
low can damage the batteries through over-discharge and possible cell
reversal.  Also double-check the regen braking parameters, so that you
don't try to stuff too much current into the pack when it's already full.

Sorry if this is stuff you've already made allowances for -- But I'd
rather say it now than after something bad has happened to your vehicle!

Good luck, and please keep us posted on your progress!

-Tom

gjc02000 wrote:

>Greetings all:
>
>I am a new member and am in the process of upgrading my 1992
>Solectria Force to a Brusa AMC 320 controller.  It originally
>had an AMC300.
>
>The main issue seems to be converting the conectors that
>go to the controllers.
>
>The original controller had a 26 pin 3M type ribbon cable
>connector and the AMC320 has a DBM-25 style.
>
>The Speed sensor also changed from a 10 pin 3M style ribbon
>to a DBM-9 style.
>
>I am also in the process of building a communication cable
>with RS-422 to RS-232 conversion.  The DBM-15 plugs into
>the controller while the DBM-9 plugs into the laptop.
>
>Everything is looking good except that the parts for the RS-422 to
>RS-232 conversion have not yet arrived.  Other than that, I
>am about ready to plug everything in.
>
>Here are my questions:
>
>1)  Has anyone else done this conversion before?
>
>2)  I am following the schematics in the Brusa manuals.
>Is there anything else I should know about?
>
>3)  Is there any special programming in the controller
>that MUST be down before I attempt to drive it?
>(I might get tired waiting for those parts.)
>
>4)  I have been taking pictures and notes of my progress.
>Is anyone interested in them?  (Assuming the car runs)
>
>Thank you,
>Gary Carlson
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

gjc02000 <gjc0@...> wrote:Greetings all:

I am a new member and am in the process of upgrading my 1992
Solectria Force to a Brusa AMC 320 controller.  It originally
had an AMC300.

The main issue seems to be converting the conectors that
go to the controllers.

The original controller had a 26 pin 3M type ribbon cable
connector and the AMC320 has a DBM-25 style.

The Speed sensor also changed from a 10 pin 3M style ribbon
to a DBM-9 style.

I am also in the process of building a communication cable
with RS-422 to RS-232 conversion.  The DBM-15 plugs into
the controller while the DBM-9 plugs into the laptop.

Everything is looking good except that the parts for the RS-422 to
RS-232 conversion have not yet arrived.  Other than that, I
am about ready to plug everything in.

Here are my questions:

1)  Has anyone else done this conversion before?

2)  I am following the schematics in the Brusa manuals.
Is there anything else I should know about?

3)  Is there any special programming in the controller
that MUST be down before I attempt to drive it?
(I might get tired waiting for those parts.)

4)  I have been taking pictures and notes of my progress.
Is anyone interested in them?  (Assuming the car runs)

Thank you,
Gary Carlson



Gary

That's a real interesting project. Did you decide to upgrade because of
potential improvements, or were you forced by equipment failure? I also have a
1992, the original charger went, so I fear that some of the other componants
have a limited life that I must be prepared for. Good luck and keep us informed
of the progress.

Bouty Baldridge

cfrw@...


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umarc wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, cfrkeepr wrote:
>
>
>>Are there any reasonable chargers to be had? Please help me.
>
>
> When I needed a new charger three years ago, I was tempted to try building
> my own. But I ended up buying a Zivan NG-3; it was under a thousand
> dollars. I don't know if it is still available, but the user's manual
> lists two U.S. dealers:
>
> Electric Conversions
> 215 14th Street
> Sacramento, CA 95814
> (916) 441-4161
>
> Zapi Inc.
> 6220 Angus Drive Street 102
> Raleigh, NC 27613
> (919) 789-4588
>
>
> Rob Landry
> umarc@...

IMOHO, the Zivan has a nasty finish-charge algorithm, and
will shorten the life of anything but flooded batteries.
Might want to check if Zapi has chips to provide gentler
profiles.

There was a canadian company (forgetting the name) that
has a well-respected charger, but they max-out at 72v.
If you have an old 144v system, you could get two of them.
They had q in their name or something (NOT Soneil)
--
Aaron Birenboim        | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM        |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
  >http://aaron.boim.com |

Thanks for the feedback. You helped me confirm my decision to get the Zivan, in
that I have new flooded batteries and the price was less than $1000, with the
temp compensation.
Bouty

Aaron Birenboim <aaron@...> wrote:
umarc wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, cfrkeepr wrote:
>
>
>>Are there any reasonable chargers to be had? Please help me.
>
>
> When I needed a new charger three years ago, I was tempted to try building
> my own. But I ended up buying a Zivan NG-3; it was under a thousand
> dollars. I don't know if it is still available, but the user's manual
> lists two U.S. dealers:
>
> Electric Conversions
> 215 14th Street
> Sacramento, CA 95814
> (916) 441-4161
>
> Zapi Inc.
> 6220 Angus Drive Street 102
> Raleigh, NC 27613
> (919) 789-4588
>
>
> Rob Landry
> umarc@...

IMOHO, the Zivan has a nasty finish-charge algorithm, and
will shorten the life of anything but flooded batteries.
Might want to check if Zapi has chips to provide gentler
profiles.

There was a canadian company (forgetting the name) that
has a well-respected charger, but they max-out at 72v.
If you have an old 144v system, you could get two of them.
They had q in their name or something (NOT Soneil)
--
Aaron Birenboim        | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM        |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

d. Bouton Baldridge wrote:
> Thanks for the feedback. You helped me confirm my decision to get the Zivan,
in that I have new flooded batteries and the price was less than $1000, with the
temp compensation.
> Bouty

Good.  I have floodeds too.
I'm not getting the capacity I should, but I'm still trying.

I was hoping to get those little watering caps... the ones
with plastic tubes and little float valves to automaticly
fill to the correct level.
I thought it might work as well to set this up in the
front battery box with the flooded pack on Zivan as
to try and put regulators on SLA batteries.

Unfortunately, my 85Ah (C/20) rated Trojan G24 modules
are only delivering around 22Ah when the sag hits
the 10.5v/module limit.

I have two "stinker" batteries... but they aren't that bad.
Only a couple of tenths of a V (max) lower than their neighbors
when I check.   I have a half-built module-voltage monitor
in the basement to help and see if those two stinkers are enough
to reduce the capacity that drasticly.
I'd think that an 85Ah battery should be able to deliver
at least 50Ah in EV use...  call it 40Ah worst case to 80% DoD....
not the 22 I'm getting.

--
Aaron Birenboim        | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM        |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
  >http://aaron.boim.com |

I'd be interested in knowing how your charger ticks :)

What exactly does it do/not do?

I am currently atttempting to rebuild a BC1600.  They have relatively
simple hardware, but debug takes awhile due to the higher power
throughput. If this rebuild attempt is suceessful, maybe other units
can be rebuilt. I could not afford an EV if the chargers are going to
die every few years.

Mike


--- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, "cfrkeepr" <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
> This is very dicouraging. My charger developed a tick. I thought
> that I could get it repaired. It is so old that there is no
> information on it. Solectria has no more chargers in stock. They
> sent me to Brusa, any one out there price a new charger lately? Over
> $5,000. What in the world is going on? Obviously the car is useless
> without a charger but I can't invest another $5000 after already
> investing as much to get the car and new batteries up and running.
> Maybe the ICE people know something we EV's don't. Long story short
> Are there any reasonable chargers to be had? Please help me.
>
> Bouton Baldridge

Greetigs all:

Last Saturday, I connected up my 1992 Solectria Force to
a Brusa AMC 320 controller.  Nothing happended.

In addition to the incoming high voltage (144 volts), and the three
phases of the GT-20 motor, I have the following connectors:

DBM-9:   Motor speed, direction and temperature sensor.
DBM-15:  Communication port (with RS-422 - RS232 adapter)
DBM-25:  Main controller inputs, direction, throttle, etc.
Four pin Molex:  Brake switch and emergency shutoff.

The ampmeter shows that I am drawing 0.2 amps at 144 volts when I
turn on the key.  The laptop PC indications no communication or
missing parameter.

The vehicle shows no interest in moving forward or backward.

One of the pins on the DMB-25 connector of the Brusa AMC-320 is
for a malfunction LED.  I have a red LED connected to this pin and
the LED flashes a little faster than once per second.  This falshing
LED lights up as soon as I turn on the ignition key.

Questions:

1)  Is there any external connection (or misconnection) that will
cause the Brusa AMC-320 to indicate a mafunction?  Or is the problem
definately in the Brusa AMC-320 controller?

2)  Any hints on what else to check?

3)  Any contacts at Solectria who might offer advice?

4)  Any local (i.e. North America) contacts for Brusa?

If anyone is interested, I can send schematics of my conversion as
well as pictures.  The original Brusa controller had a 26 pin ribbon
cable that I adapted to the DBM-25 connector.

Sincerely
Gary Carlson