solectria_ev : Messages : 543-572 of 9023

*If you want to attend, please RSVP*

-
EV & hybrid exhibition @ greenearthofficesupply

Where: on the street, Store parking lot or near by
        59 N. Santa Cruz Avenue Los Gatos, CA 95030

When: on Sundays 9am-4pm
       July 21
       August 4th

Who: local and distant, short and long range, EVs and hybrids

Charging: possibly 120VAC power from the store, or
           from next door neighbors

Contact: SJEAA EVent coordinator  brucedp@...
-


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#544

From: Andrew Foss <afoss@...>
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 4:21 pm
Subject: Help w/ Ammeter...

n690rp

Force folks,

last week the ammeter in my dash started behaving oddly. It flashes
green and red and counts up and down a bit, but nothing correlating to
the actual electricity use of the motor?

Has anyone run into anything like this or have any pointers as to
whether it's likely the current sensor in the motor circuit or if it's
the ammeter itself?

thanks in advance,
andrew

#545

From: "Will Beckett" <will@...>
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:38 pm
Subject: Re: [force_ev] Help w/ Ammeter...

beckettwj

Yes.  I had this problem when my replacement meter came back from repair.  It
will usually correct itself after a reset, which happens after a computer
charge.  If that doesn't work you can try the disconnect but most of the time
that introduces the problem and I wait for a complete charge for it to reset and
that works.

-Will

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Andrew Foss <afoss@...>
Reply-To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Date:  Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:21:24 -0700

><html><body>
>
>
><tt>
>Force folks,<BR>
><BR>
>last week the ammeter in my dash started behaving oddly. It flashes <BR>
>green and red and counts up and down a bit, but nothing correlating to <BR>
>the actual electricity use of the motor?<BR>
><BR>
>Has anyone run into anything like this or have any pointers as to <BR>
>whether it's likely the current sensor in the motor circuit or if it's <BR>
>the ammeter itself?<BR>
><BR>
>thanks in advance,<BR>
>andrew<BR>
><BR>
></tt>
>
>
><br>
><tt>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
>force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com<BR>
><BR>
></tt>
><br>
>
><br>
><tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
></br>
>
></body></html>
>
>

#546

From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp@...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:50 am
Subject: EVLN(Fed judge delays CARB mandate for 2 years)

brucedp

EVLN(Fed judge delays CARB mandate for 2 years)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
  informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
  --- {EVangel}
[ Earl POSTed the item below on the RAV4_EV group.
   Interesting and informative responses should also be read
   on  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RAV4_EV/messages ]

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/3489265.htm
Posted on Mon, Jun. 17, 2002
Judge delays electric-car mandate

FRESNO, Calif. - A federal judge has issued a preliminary
injunction delaying enforcement of California's electric-car
mandate in its current form for two years.

U.S. District Judge Robert Coyle granted the injunction last
week after a request from General Motors Corp.  and
DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler unit.

The auto makers contend in a pending lawsuit against the
California Air Resources Board that the so-called
zero-emission-vehicle mandate is illegal because it allows
the state to regulate automotive fuel economy, a power
reserved for the federal government.

The board has countered that the program, which had been set
to take effect in 2003, addresses clean-air concerns beyond
fuel economy.

The injunction marks the latest legal twist in a battle over
the state's clean-car program that has dragged on for more
than a decade.

Auto industry officials say the ruling postpones the entire
program until 2005, pending the resolution of the suit by GM
and Chrysler.

But state officials argue the judge's order still allows the
program to take effect next year, just without a set of
changes the board made in 2001 in response to auto industry
protests that the earlier version was too tough.

In 2001, the Air Resources Board decided to allow auto
makers to earn credits toward the mandate by rolling out
technologies such as hybrid gasoline and electric cars. The
cars are already on sale.

The board allowed the hybrid cars, hoping it would force the
industry to continue to perfect zero-emission technologies.

However, the amendments prompted the lawsuit by GM and
Chrysler claiming the program amounted to an illegal state
fuel-economy mandate.

Richard Varenchik, Air Resources Board spokesman, told the
Wall Street Journal the board hasn't decided whether to
appeal the injunction.

"If this stands, we simply take a step back," he said. "The
thing that's sort of odd about this is it appears the auto
makers have litigated against a rule that gave them more
options and more flexibility."


� 2001 mercurynews and wire service sources. All Rights
Reserved.  http://www.bayarea.com

===
[I found]
http://www.redbluffdailynews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2002/June/18\
-3054-news66.txt
June 18, 2002
FEDERAL JUDGE DELAYS ENFORCEMENT OF ELECTRIC CARS

FRESNO (AP) - A federal judge has issued a preliminary
injunction delaying enforcement of California's electric-car
mandate in its current form for two years.

U.S. District Judge Robert Coyle granted the injunction last
week after a request from General Motors Corp. and
DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler unit.

The auto makers contend in a pending lawsuit against the
California Air Resources Board that the so-called
zero-emission-vehicle mandate is illegal because it allows
the state to regulate automotive fuel economy, a power
reserved for the federal government.

The board has countered that the program, which had been set
to take effect in 2003, addresses clean-air concerns beyond
fuel economy.

The injunction marks the latest legal twist in a battle over
the state's clean-car program that has dragged on for more
than a decade.

Auto industry officials say the ruling postpones the entire
program until 2005, pending the resolution of the suit by GM
and Chrysler.

But state officials argue the judge's order still allows the
program to take effect next year, just without a set of
changes the board made in 2001 in response to auto industry
protests that the earlier version was too tough.

In 2001, the Air Resources Board decided to allow auto
makers to earn credits toward the mandate by rolling out
technologies such as hybrid gasoline and electric cars. The
cars are already on sale.

The board allowed the hybrid cars, hoping it would force the
industry to continue to perfect zero-emission technologies.

However, the amendments prompted the lawsuit by GM and
Chrysler claiming the program amounted to an illegal state
fuel-economy mandate.

Richard Varenchik, Air Resources Board spokesman, told the
Wall Street Journal the board hasn't decided whether to
appeal the injunction.
-




=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. http://egroups.com/group/evangel
=====

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#547

From: Gordon Stallings <grs@...>
Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:55 pm
Subject: Zinc-air Force

grs@...

Here's a website that has a photo of a Force that's been modified to use
zinc-air fuel cells.

"Lookit that radiator!!"

http://www.metallicpower.com/news.htm


Gordon Stallings
1999 Solectria Force

#548

From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <roden@...>
Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:33 am
Subject: Re: [force_ev] Zinc-air Force

roden@...

On 27 Jun 2002 at 15:55, Gordon Stallings wrote:

> "Lookit that radiator!!"

To say nothing of that back seat full of ... uh ... whatever the back seat is
full
of.  (Quite visible in the first hires photo.)

I think I'd like to have a luggage rack like that on my trunk, too.  <g>

David Roden
Akron OH USA

#549

From: Andrew Foss <afoss@...>
Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 11:09 pm
Subject: Battery conditioners, monitors and solar...

n690rp

Force folks,

Has anyone and experience or opinions about battery conditioners, so
called "de-sulfators"? I'm wondering, if that's not a worthwhile, step
before replacing my lead acid batteries, which are showing their age.
http://www.pulsetech.com/

My Solectria Ammeter just broke and it's back in MA. getting fixed, but
I'm also wondering about using the Emeter Link 10 or Trimetric? Ideally,
I'd like to be able to monitor each battery individually, but it sounds
easiest to just monitor the whole pack.
http://www.windsun.com/ChargeControls/Trimetric_2020.htm

Does anyone know what the amphour ratings of the force lead acid
batteries are? It sounds like SLA batteries can be continuously trickle
charged w/o a charging controller if the current is less than 1.5% of
the amphour rating.

I've done some quick math on using the Unisolar flexible solar panels,
which are so popular on boats. The hood, roof and trunk of the force
would support 13 11 watt panels. Each panel can deliver an average of
2.6 amphours/day(average 5.1 solar hours at SF latititude). Across 13
panels with 70% battery efficiency that's 23 amphours/day or nearly 20
miles/day. It's far from being truly self-sustaining, but these panels
are reasonably inexpensive now I wonder if it would be good to help
reduce the deep cycle discharge a bit, keep the batteries individually
and more evenly trickle charged and even in a real pinch 2-3 days in the
full sun and you can be fully recharged? Any way it would just feel good
to be able to carry some free charging cabability on board!

andrew

#550

From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <roden@...>
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 12:48 am
Subject: Re: [force_ev] Battery conditioners, monitors and solar...

roden@...

On 1 Jul 2002 at 16:09, Andrew Foss wrote:

> Has anyone and experience or opinions about battery conditioners, so
> called "de-sulfators"?

All the tests I've seen are anecdotal.  A battery electrochemist will tell you
that there is no scientific basis to their "theory" -- there is no resonance in
a
battery at any of the frequencies they use.  Besides, most ordinary cheap
hardware-store battery chargers pulse, too.

Some people report good results from "desulfators," but I'm not convinced
that they couldn't get exactly the same results by using a battery charger in
exactly the same way.

>
> My Solectria Ammeter just broke and it's back in MA. getting fixed, but
> I'm also wondering about using the Emeter Link 10 or Trimetric?

These are used in many EVs.  The disadvantage of the Emeter over the
Solectria / Brusa AH counter is that it's primarily an RE product and not
really designed for EVs.  It requires a special external isolated power supply
and, in most cases, a prescaler.  This increases the price.

The Emeter's advantage is that it has more built in smarts than the older
Solectria / Brusa product (the current Brusa meter is fairly comparable).  The
Emeter also can handle higher currents with the prescaler, but this is not
really important for unmodified Solectria cars.

Bottom line is that it should work fine.

> It sounds like SLA batteries can be continuously trickle
> charged w/o a charging controller if the current is less than 1.5% of
> the amphour rating.

Don't believe it.  A charger that never shuts off will kill any battery,
especially
the gel batteries usually used in Solectrias.

As a rule of thumb, the smarter the charge controller (and the more it costs
<g>), the lower the amoritized cost of your batteries.  If you want still better
service life and range, look into controlling charge at the individual module
level.  (Charge control at the cell level would be even better, but it's
impractical with the sealed valve regulated modules Solectria use.)

>
> I've done some quick math on using the Unisolar flexible solar panels,
> which are so popular on boats. The hood, roof and trunk of the force
> would support 13 11 watt panels. Each panel can deliver an average of
> 2.6 amphours/day(average 5.1 solar hours at SF latititude). Across 13
> panels with 70% battery efficiency that's 23 amphours/day or nearly 20
> miles/day. It's far from being truly self-sustaining, but these panels
> are reasonably inexpensive now I wonder if it would be good to help
> reduce the deep cycle discharge a bit, keep the batteries individually
> and more evenly trickle charged and even in a real pinch 2-3 days in the
> full sun and you can be fully recharged? Any way it would just feel good
> to be able to carry some free charging cabability on board!

Not to throw water on the idea, but PV panels are usually rated best-case.
The surface of a car is not optimum for orienting them toward the sun, unless
you tilt the car to face the sun as the earth rotates <g>.  Do the figures you
quoted include this deviation from optimum?

Don't forget that attaching the panels to the car will adversely affect the
car's
aerodynamic qualities, reducing its efficiency.

PVs might improve battery life by reducing the amount of time they spend in
a discharged state.  However, you could accomplish the same thing by
plugging in at work.

I think Tom Hudson has the most practical approach to a solar-powered EV.
He put the PVs on his house, not his car.  He mounted enough of them to
offset the car's energy use, and bought a grid-intertie inverter.  While he's
away at work, the PVs on the house are stuffing electricity into the grid.
When he comes home he plugs the car in and sucks it back out --
essentially using the power grid as a very large battery that never wears out.

David Roden
Akron OH USA

#551

From: "Will Beckett" <will@...>
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 11:47 pm
Subject: RE: Force rear battery box fan

beckettwj

Now that we have the car back we are noticing things we didn't remember
from before.  When the car is off we hear a fan noise from the trunk
area and I suspect it is the fan for the rear battery box.  Does it turn
on with a temperature sensor?  We have been charging the car a lot
lately and the outside temperature has been high lately.

- Will

Will Beckett
Contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)

Become a member or donate to the Electric Auto Association, donations
are tax deductible. http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)

#552

From: Gordon Stallings <grs@...>
Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: [force_ev] RE: Force rear battery box fan

grs@...

At 16:47 07/03/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Now that we have the car back we are noticing things we didn't remember
>from before.  When the car is off we hear a fan noise from the trunk
>area and I suspect it is the fan for the rear battery box.  Does it turn
>on with a temperature sensor?  We have been charging the car a lot
>lately and the outside temperature has been high lately.
>
>- Will

Yes, that's normal operation.  We have several months of high temperatures
here in Oklahoma.  My fan does not shut off until late September.  The
thermostat has a pretty wide hysteresis, so once it turns on, the
temperature needs to go considerably lower before it turns off.  On mine,
the turn-on point is about 100 to 110F and the turn-off point is about 70F.

Gordon Stallings
1999 Solectria Force
2002 Prius

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)

#553

From: "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@...>
Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 3:48 pm
Subject: RE: [force_ev] RE: Force rear battery box fan

tdhudsonx

> Now that we have the car back we are noticing things we didn't remember
> from before.  When the car is off we hear a fan noise from the trunk
> area and I suspect it is the fan for the rear battery box.  Does it turn
> on with a temperature sensor?  We have been charging the car a lot
> lately and the outside temperature has been high lately.

Yeah, there's a sensor in the battery box that should shut that off when the
temperature drops.  Mine always came on in hot weather.

Now that we have the NiCD pack, it's really obvious when the batteries are
hot because there's a big fan on the radiator under the car for the liquid
cooling system.  The sound from that fan and the circulation pump makes an
interesting conversation piece in parking lots...

-Tom

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)

#554

From: "Tracy, Matt" <matt.tracy@...>
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:37 pm
Subject: Voltage Leak (somebody get a mop)

mtracyev

I am looking for suggestions.  My 144 Volt, 1992 Solectria Force has a
voltage leak.  I am measuring 144 Volts between the battery pack and the car
frame.  With some suggestions from Solectria, I have pinned it down to
something to do with the air conditioner motor.  When the motor is
disconnected, or insulated from the car frame, the voltage between the car
and the battery pack reads between .7 - .9 volts.  When connected and
touching the frame, the full battery pack voltage registers - around 158
volts when fully charged.

I took the DC motor to a shop for testing.  They said it is fine - no short
circuit, no carbon build up, and the brushes are okay.  I took the motor
casing off, and it looks clean, but trouble-shooting electric motors is
beyond my skill set.

One of the techs at Solectria suggested building a resistor tuned to the 144
v system, connect it in line with the motor somehow, and test to see if the
unwanted voltage is a problem, or just an annoyance.  I am game to try, but
would prefer to know what changed to cause the problem, and what I can do to
fix it.

There were two items I changed that may have caused it, or it may be
something unrelated that just broke (or whatever).  First, I changed out the
batteries from 22NF's with 9 in back and 3 in front, to group 24's with 8 in
back and 4 in front.  I do not think this is part of the problem, but it is
something I did.  Second, I moved the fuses out of the front battery box and
put them in an electrical box I mounted (suspended on brackets) above the
main motor controller.  Lots more opportunity for a chafed wire, but again,
testing points to the air conditioner motor.

I can send the air conditioner motor and controller to Solectria for
testing, but fear that the issue may be external to those two pieces, and I
am not willing to send the whole car from Kansas City, MO to Woburn, MA for
repair.  What kind of tradesman would know about how to diagnose / fix this?
The electric motor shop was only willing to test the motor.  I also had my
brother-in-law, a HVAC technician, take a look, but he was not able to pin
it down to something other than it must be either the motor or the
controller.

I appreciate any assistance / advice available.  Thanks.

Matt Tracy

#555

From: "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@...>
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:07 pm
Subject: RE: [force_ev] Voltage Leak (somebody get a mop)

tdhudsonx

Matt, have you tried talking to Jeff Simpson?  He's no longer the Solectria
rep out there but he may be willing to help troubleshoot the car.

Have you tried taking a reading of resistance between the motor leads and
its frame?  I would think it should be infinite (no connection).  I can try
it with the A/C motor on our truck and see what it shows.  When you say
you're reading 144V, is that between the frame and the negative post of
battery 1 or between the frame and the positive post of battery 12?

What led you to find the voltage leak?  I'm curious how you found it, or
what tipped you off to it being there.

To me, the worst-case scenario would be to get some insulated bushings and
mount the A/C motor using them, preventing the circuit from connecting.

-Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tracy, Matt [mailto:matt.tracy@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 2:37 PM
> To: 'force_ev@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [force_ev] Voltage Leak (somebody get a mop)
>
>
> I am looking for suggestions.  My 144 Volt, 1992 Solectria Force has a
> voltage leak.  I am measuring 144 Volts between the battery pack
> and the car
> frame.  With some suggestions from Solectria, I have pinned it down to
> something to do with the air conditioner motor.  When the motor is
> disconnected, or insulated from the car frame, the voltage between the car
> and the battery pack reads between .7 - .9 volts.  When connected and
> touching the frame, the full battery pack voltage registers - around 158
> volts when fully charged.
>
> I took the DC motor to a shop for testing.  They said it is fine
> - no short
> circuit, no carbon build up, and the brushes are okay.  I took the motor
> casing off, and it looks clean, but trouble-shooting electric motors is
> beyond my skill set.
>
> One of the techs at Solectria suggested building a resistor tuned
> to the 144
> v system, connect it in line with the motor somehow, and test to
> see if the
> unwanted voltage is a problem, or just an annoyance.  I am game
> to try, but
> would prefer to know what changed to cause the problem, and what
> I can do to
> fix it.
>
> There were two items I changed that may have caused it, or it may be
> something unrelated that just broke (or whatever).  First, I
> changed out the
> batteries from 22NF's with 9 in back and 3 in front, to group
> 24's with 8 in
> back and 4 in front.  I do not think this is part of the problem,
> but it is
> something I did.  Second, I moved the fuses out of the front
> battery box and
> put them in an electrical box I mounted (suspended on brackets) above the
> main motor controller.  Lots more opportunity for a chafed wire,
> but again,
> testing points to the air conditioner motor.
>
> I can send the air conditioner motor and controller to Solectria for
> testing, but fear that the issue may be external to those two
> pieces, and I
> am not willing to send the whole car from Kansas City, MO to
> Woburn, MA for
> repair.  What kind of tradesman would know about how to diagnose
> / fix this?
> The electric motor shop was only willing to test the motor.  I also had my
> brother-in-law, a HVAC technician, take a look, but he was not able to pin
> it down to something other than it must be either the motor or the
> controller.
>
> I appreciate any assistance / advice available.  Thanks.
>
> Matt Tracy
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

#556

From: "mtracyev" <matt.tracy@...>
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:23 pm
Subject: Re: Voltage Leak (somebody get a mop)

mtracyev

I found the problem when I was doing some individual battery voltage
measurements in the back battery box.  I leaned in to get one of the
far batteries, and when my arm touched the box and one of the battery
terminals I got a slight tingle.  I knew that shouldn't happen, so I
did a quick voltage check between the batteries and the frame, and
confirmed there was voltage.  I think the voltage is between the
positive terminal to the batteries and the frame, but I do not
remember for certain.

I may get together with Jeff, I think he is on the MAEAA discussion
list, and I sent my message out on it, too.

--- In force_ev@y..., "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@e...> wrote:
> Matt, have you tried talking to Jeff Simpson?  He's no longer the
Solectria
> rep out there but he may be willing to help troubleshoot the car.
>
> Have you tried taking a reading of resistance between the motor
leads and
> its frame?  I would think it should be infinite (no connection).  I
can try
> it with the A/C motor on our truck and see what it shows.  When you
say
> you're reading 144V, is that between the frame and the negative
post of
> battery 1 or between the frame and the positive post of battery 12?
>
> What led you to find the voltage leak?  I'm curious how you found
it, or
> what tipped you off to it being there.
>
> To me, the worst-case scenario would be to get some insulated
bushings and
> mount the A/C motor using them, preventing the circuit from
connecting.
>
> -Tom
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tracy, Matt [mailto:matt.tracy@a...]
> > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 2:37 PM
> > To: 'force_ev@y...'
> > Subject: [force_ev] Voltage Leak (somebody get a mop)
> >
> > I am looking for suggestions.  My 144 Volt, 1992 Solectria Force
has a
> > voltage leak.  I am measuring 144 Volts between the battery pack
> > and the car
> > frame.  With some suggestions from Solectria, I have pinned it
down to
> > something to do with the air conditioner motor.  When the motor is
> > disconnected, or insulated from the car frame, the voltage
between the car
> > and the battery pack reads between .7 - .9 volts.  When connected
and
> > touching the frame, the full battery pack voltage registers -
around 158
> > volts when fully charged.
> >
> > I took the DC motor to a shop for testing.  They said it is fine
> > - no short
> > circuit, no carbon build up, and the brushes are okay.  I took
the motor
> > casing off, and it looks clean, but trouble-shooting electric
motors is
> > beyond my skill set.
> >
> > One of the techs at Solectria suggested building a resistor tuned
> > to the 144
> > v system, connect it in line with the motor somehow, and test to
> > see if the
> > unwanted voltage is a problem, or just an annoyance.  I am game
> > to try, but
> > would prefer to know what changed to cause the problem, and what
> > I can do to
> > fix it.
> >
> > There were two items I changed that may have caused it, or it may
be
> > something unrelated that just broke (or whatever).  First, I
> > changed out the
> > batteries from 22NF's with 9 in back and 3 in front, to group
> > 24's with 8 in
> > back and 4 in front.  I do not think this is part of the problem,
> > but it is
> > something I did.  Second, I moved the fuses out of the front
> > battery box and
> > put them in an electrical box I mounted (suspended on brackets)
above the
> > main motor controller.  Lots more opportunity for a chafed wire,
> > but again,
> > testing points to the air conditioner motor.
> >
> > I can send the air conditioner motor and controller to Solectria
for
> > testing, but fear that the issue may be external to those two
> > pieces, and I
> > am not willing to send the whole car from Kansas City, MO to
> > Woburn, MA for
> > repair.  What kind of tradesman would know about how to diagnose
> > / fix this?
> > The electric motor shop was only willing to test the motor.  I
also had my
> > brother-in-law, a HVAC technician, take a look, but he was not
able to pin
> > it down to something other than it must be either the motor or the
> > controller.
> >
> > I appreciate any assistance / advice available.  Thanks.
> >
> > Matt Tracy

#557

From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp@...>
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:15 am
Subject: San Jose EAA meeting: Sat 7/13 10a-1p @ Reid Hillview

brucedp

The San Jose EAA Chapter is having their regular second
Saturday meeting on July 13th at 2350 Cunningham Ave.
Reid Hillview Airport Terminal Building

Directions & details on  http://geocities.com/sjeaa/
120VAC 20amp charging is available.

The usual lively meetings have Chapter Officer
announcements of the major items, then a round table
to hear from everyone. And lastly at the end of the
meeting, the members relinquish the room and continue
their networking outside with the EVs.

The San Jose EAA Chapter has already established which
of its members that will vollunter to help with the Silicon
Valley EAA Rally in Sept at Stanford (the largest EVent
in the SF area  http://eaasv.org ).

But the EV charging spot installation infrastructure
is still big on SJEAA's agenda. Along with working to
help new RAV4 EV drivers with carrying their chargers
and have an AVCON charging option. There will be more
discussed, but you will just have to come to the
meeting to get it all.

All EAA meetings are free and open to the public.
You do not have to be an EAA member to enjoy the
meetings or EVents.
-




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

#558

From: "Will Beckett" <will@...>
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 4:28 pm
Subject: RE: Silicon Valley Chapter EAA meeting July 20th, 10am to noon, guest speaker on fuel cells

beckettwj

The Silicon Valley Chapter of the Electric Auto Association meets on the
third Saturday of every month at the HP World Headquarters at 3000
Hanover St. Palo Alto, CA (corner of Page Mill Rd and Hanover) from 10am
to noon.  Our next meeting is July 20th.  This month our speaker will
cover fuel cells.

"Regarding Fuel Cells", Presented By: Stephen Chase Honikman,
http://FuelCellStore.com

Discover fuel cell technology that will transform everyday life,
revolutionize your view on how energy is generated and how the
widespread adoption of fuel cells will benefit future generations
through their clean and sustainable method of generating electricity.
Come hear Stephen Chase Honikman, of the Fuel Cell Store, speak about
what a fuel cell is all about and what we have in store for our future.

For details, please see our web site at http://eaasv.org

- Will

Will Beckett
Contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)

Become a member or donate to the Electric Auto Association, donations
are tax deductible. http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html

#559

From: bobkoska@...
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: [force_ev] San Jose EAA meeting: Sat 7/13 10a-1p @ Reid Hillview

bobkoskanj

I am the current grant manaager for the New Jersey station car program.  We
are looking to transfer title of the vehicles to the a Managment Assn. who
will continue to oversee the project.  In order to satisfy our fixed assets
department I need to establish the "Fair market value" of the vehicles.  Can
anyone direct me to a place or person that can help me establish the current
market value of Solectria Force, I believe 1996 and 1997's.

Bob Koska

bobkoska@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#560

From: "Will Beckett" <will@...>
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 7:11 pm
Subject: RE: [force_ev] San Jose EAA meeting: Sat 7/13 10a-1p @ Reid Hillview

beckettwj

My mother has a 1995 and I have 2000.  I would say between $12k and $15k
depending on condition and the batteries.  I expect you will get better
data and this from this list though.

- Will

contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)


-----Original Message-----
From: bobkoska@... [mailto:bobkoska@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 11:34 AM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [force_ev] San Jose EAA meeting: Sat 7/13 10a-1p @ Reid
Hillview


I am the current grant manaager for the New Jersey station car program.
We
are looking to transfer title of the vehicles to the a Managment Assn.
who
will continue to oversee the project.  In order to satisfy our fixed
assets
department I need to establish the "Fair market value" of the vehicles.
Can
anyone direct me to a place or person that can help me establish the
current
market value of Solectria Force, I believe 1996 and 1997's.

Bob Koska

bobkoska@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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#561

From: "Will Beckett" <will@...>
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:43 am
Subject: Temp charger is more powerful than the Busha

beckettwj

My Busha died again and is back at Solectria getting fixed.  I have some
big trips to do next week and was worried I would have to do it all with
Otmar's "bad-boy" 110vac charger which is very slow.  Ed Thorpe to the
rescue.  Ed purchased a PFC20 for his Sparrow but his Sparrow isn't
working right now so he has loaned me his charger.  Problem is, it is
clear that this charging puts out more than the Busha and I expect that
if I turn it all the way up I will blow the pack fuse.  Anyone know the
value on the pack fuse and/or what the Busha puts into the pack at its
max current?  I have a clip on DC amp meter I can measure the input with
and once I tune in the right value I will tape the trim pot down so I
don't blow the fuse.  Thanks in advance!

PFC20

- Will

Will Beckett
Beckett PC Solutions
4189 Baker Ave.
Palo Alto, CA  94306-3908
(650) 269-7011 cell
(650) 494-6922 phone/fax
will@...
http://beckettpcsolutions.com

#562

From: "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@...>
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:51 pm
Subject: RE: [force_ev] Temp charger is more powerful than the Busha

tdhudsonx

Will, I don't think the the Brusa charger puts out more than about 20A.
It's a 3.3KW charger, and at 156V that's about 20A.  Your pack fuse is MUCH
bigger than that.

I looked in the manual.  Your pack fuse is 180A.  The fuse that you're going
to be concerned about is the one on the charger's positive lead, which can
handle 30A.

Good luck!

-Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Will Beckett [mailto:will@...]
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:44 PM
> To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [force_ev] Temp charger is more powerful than the Busha
>
>
> My Busha died again and is back at Solectria getting fixed.  I have some
> big trips to do next week and was worried I would have to do it all with
> Otmar's "bad-boy" 110vac charger which is very slow.  Ed Thorpe to the
> rescue.  Ed purchased a PFC20 for his Sparrow but his Sparrow isn't
> working right now so he has loaned me his charger.  Problem is, it is
> clear that this charging puts out more than the Busha and I expect that
> if I turn it all the way up I will blow the pack fuse.  Anyone know the
> value on the pack fuse and/or what the Busha puts into the pack at its
> max current?  I have a clip on DC amp meter I can measure the input with
> and once I tune in the right value I will tape the trim pot down so I
> don't blow the fuse.  Thanks in advance!
>
> PFC20
>
> - Will
>
> Will Beckett
> Beckett PC Solutions
> 4189 Baker Ave.
> Palo Alto, CA  94306-3908
> (650) 269-7011 cell
> (650) 494-6922 phone/fax
> will@...
> http://beckettpcsolutions.com
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

#563

From: "Will Beckett" <will@...>
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 5:45 am
Subject: RE: [force_ev] Temp charger is more powerful than the Busha

beckettwj

Thanks!  I'll crank it up.

- Will

contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Hudson [mailto:tomhudson@...]
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:52 AM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [force_ev] Temp charger is more powerful than the Busha


Will, I don't think the the Brusa charger puts out more than about 20A.
It's a 3.3KW charger, and at 156V that's about 20A.  Your pack fuse is
MUCH
bigger than that.

I looked in the manual.  Your pack fuse is 180A.  The fuse that you're
going
to be concerned about is the one on the charger's positive lead, which
can
handle 30A.

Good luck!

-Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Will Beckett [mailto:will@...]
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:44 PM
> To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [force_ev] Temp charger is more powerful than the Busha
>
>
> My Busha died again and is back at Solectria getting fixed.  I have
some
> big trips to do next week and was worried I would have to do it all
with
> Otmar's "bad-boy" 110vac charger which is very slow.  Ed Thorpe to the
> rescue.  Ed purchased a PFC20 for his Sparrow but his Sparrow isn't
> working right now so he has loaned me his charger.  Problem is, it is
> clear that this charging puts out more than the Busha and I expect
that
> if I turn it all the way up I will blow the pack fuse.  Anyone know
the
> value on the pack fuse and/or what the Busha puts into the pack at its
> max current?  I have a clip on DC amp meter I can measure the input
with
> and once I tune in the right value I will tape the trim pot down so I
> don't blow the fuse.  Thanks in advance!
>
> PFC20
>
> - Will
>
> Will Beckett
> Beckett PC Solutions
> 4189 Baker Ave.
> Palo Alto, CA  94306-3908
> (650) 269-7011 cell
> (650) 494-6922 phone/fax
> will@...
> http://beckettpcsolutions.com
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>




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#564

From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp@...>
Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:25 am
Subject: SJEAA @ Green Earth Office Supply SUN 7/21 Los Gatos

brucedp

We will be at the Green Earth Office Supply store
  59 N. Santa Cruz Ave, Los Gatos CA  on:

Sunday, July 21  �10:00 am to 4:00 pm
Sunday, August 4 �10:00 am to 4:00 pm

*** If you would like to bring your EV or hybrid
     we will see you there in front of the store.
-




=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. http://egroups.com/group/evangel
=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

#565

From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp@...>
Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 7:11 pm
Subject: Troy the Troll may have this group removed

brucedp

Beware, Troy Heagy the Internet Troll will use every method
to disrupt EV groups. Even to the point of having a group
removed.

He has sent a complaint to yahoo groups. The following
message is from Yahoo but does not say which group. So
if you group disappears, you now know why.
[This does not apply to the EV List on sjsu.edu by sent as
  an fyi]

-
Dear Yahoo! account holder:

By creating and using your Yahoo! account, you agree to abide by
Yahoo!'s Terms of Service (TOS).  Pursuant to the TOS, Yahoo! reserves
the right to terminate your account or otherwise prohibit use of your
account in the event that, among other things, Yahoo! believes that
you have violated or acted inconsistently with the letter or spirit of
the TOS.

It has come to our attention that you may have violated the TOS.
Please reread the TOS and cease any use of your account that may
violate the TOS.

If your use of your Yahoo! account is brought to our attention again,
and we believe that such use violates the TOS, then we may terminate
your account without further notice.

Please do not reply to this email.  Any questions concerning Yahoo!'s
Services should be submitted through the on-line form in the help area
( http://help.yahoo.com ).
  -Yahoo!
-

=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. http://egroups.com/group/evangel
=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

#566

From: "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@...>
Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:27 pm
Subject: RE: [force_ev] Troy the Troll may have this group removed

tdhudsonx

Bruce, if I were you, I'd check with Yahoo and find out (A) which group is
involved and (B) what the complaint was.  Good luck.

-Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter [mailto:brucedp@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 2:12 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: [force_ev] Troy the Troll may have this group removed
>
>
> Beware, Troy Heagy the Internet Troll will use every method
> to disrupt EV groups. Even to the point of having a group
> removed.
>
> He has sent a complaint to yahoo groups. The following
> message is from Yahoo but does not say which group. So
> if you group disappears, you now know why.
> [This does not apply to the EV List on sjsu.edu by sent as
>  an fyi]
>
> -
> Dear Yahoo! account holder:
>
> By creating and using your Yahoo! account, you agree to abide by
> Yahoo!'s Terms of Service (TOS).  Pursuant to the TOS, Yahoo! reserves
> the right to terminate your account or otherwise prohibit use of your
> account in the event that, among other things, Yahoo! believes that
> you have violated or acted inconsistently with the letter or spirit of
> the TOS.
>
> It has come to our attention that you may have violated the TOS.
> Please reread the TOS and cease any use of your account that may
> violate the TOS.
>
> If your use of your Yahoo! account is brought to our attention again,
> and we believe that such use violates the TOS, then we may terminate
> your account without further notice.
>
> Please do not reply to this email.  Any questions concerning Yahoo!'s
> Services should be submitted through the on-line form in the help area
> ( http://help.yahoo.com ).
>  -Yahoo!
> -
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . http://egroups.com/group/evangel
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

#567

From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp@...>
Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 4:27 am
Subject: Nominations for EAA Keith Crock and Fellow Awards are open

brucedp

The EAA would like to receive nominations for our EAA Fellow
Award and Keith Crock Awards.

The Fellow Award is made to individuals for outstanding
activities in areas relating to support of the EAA,
advancing the cause of electric vehicles, or other
activities of benefit to the EV industry.

The Keith Crock Award can be given to an individual, a
group, a company, or other organization. This award is
given for technical excellence and can be in the form of a
vehicle, component, a drive system, supporting
infrastructure, etc.

*** More details are on the EAA page http://eaaev.org/




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

#568

From: "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@...>
Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 4:45 pm
Subject: Force NiCD upgrade complete

tdhudsonx

Hi everybody,

Just a quick note to announce the completion of the writeup of my battery
upgrade in our 1997 Solectria Force.  We bought the car new with a lead-acid
pack and I had promised my wife that we'd upgrade the battery pack when it
needed to be replaced.  True to my word, I did the job, though it took a
while to (A) get all the components together and (B) find the time to do the
job.  I completed the upgrade in late May and finished writing the account
of the job yesterday.  It's a blow-by-blow account of the whole process,
with photos.  I hope you enjoy it!

The URL for the story: http://www.portev.org/solectria/ho/nicad.htm

-Tom

Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration

#569

From: "Don Buckshot" <buckshot@...>
Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 5:36 pm
Subject: Re: [force_ev] Force NiCD upgrade complete

buckshot@...

I'm sending my 1996 NiMH Force to Solectria this week for repair (of the
batteries, I think)  Actually wish I had a simple lead acid version.
Don

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@...>
To: "Force Mailing List" <force_ev@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Karl Thidemann" <thidemann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: [force_ev] Force NiCD upgrade complete

| Hi everybody,
|
| Just a quick note to announce the completion of the writeup of my battery
| upgrade in our 1997 Solectria Force.  We bought the car new with a lead-acid
| pack and I had promised my wife that we'd upgrade the battery pack when it
| needed to be replaced.  True to my word, I did the job, though it took a
| while to (A) get all the components together and (B) find the time to do the
| job.  I completed the upgrade in late May and finished writing the account
| of the job yesterday.  It's a blow-by-blow account of the whole process,
| with photos.  I hope you enjoy it!
|
| The URL for the story: http://www.portev.org/solectria/ho/nicad.htm
|
| -Tom
|
| Thomas Hudson
| http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
| http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
| http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
| http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
|
|
|
|
|
| To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
| force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|

#570

From: Adam Kuehn <akuehn@...>
Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 6:09 pm
Subject: Newbie Questions

kuehnweb

>I'm sending my 1996 NiMH Force to Solectria this week for repair (of the
>batteries, I think)  Actually wish I had a simple lead acid version.
>Don

Actually, this is a good segue for me.  I am looking to possibly
acquire a used Force.  It has 13K miles and the original (PbA)
battery pack.  The seller claims that it still has a 50-mile range.
Assuming it has been well-cared for, what might be the typical
maintenance requirements on this vehicle?

Some background on the purpose for the question:  I am not a car
enthusiast in general, and I don't really know my way around an ICE
car.  I've swapped out belts and tightened a few bolts, but I'm not
much of a do-it-yourselfer.  On the other hand, I am very interested
in environmental issues, and thought that an EV would be a good way
for me to take care of my commuting needs in a relatively
non-polluting way.  Sort of a "put my money where my mouth is"
approach.

But I need to know if I'd be getting in over my head.  Is maintenance
fairly straightforward?  Is Solectria still pretty good about
customer support, even though they have stopped production?  Are
parts available fairly readily?  What are the typical problems
encountered from simple day-to-day commuting, and will I be likely to
be able to handle them myself or find the help I might need?

I've spoken with a Solectria rep, and they sure sound nice on the
phone.  But what are your real-world experiences?

Thanks for your help,
--

-Adam Kuehn
Durham, NC

#571

From: "umarc@..." <umarc@...>
Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 11:46 pm
Subject: Re: [force_ev] Newbie Questions

umarc@...

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Adam Kuehn wrote:

>
> Actually, this is a good segue for me.  I am looking to possibly
> acquire a used Force.  It has 13K miles and the original (PbA)
> battery pack.  The seller claims that it still has a 50-mile range.
> Assuming it has been well-cared for, what might be the typical
> maintenance requirements on this vehicle?

In October 2000, I bought a 1992 Force with 11,300 miles on it, not having
had any experience with electric cars before nor much of an inclination
for tinkering with things automotive (I work in radio, though, and have
never shied away from screwdrivers or soldering irons).

Since then, I've bought a new charger, two new sets of batteries (the
first lasted a year), a new set of tires, and had some brake work done on
the car.

The manual that came with the car was deceptive. No, you don't get a 50
mile range -- not in Massachusetts, anyway. In the winter, if you go more
than 10 miles between charges you'll dramatically shorten your battery
life (this is assuming you have lead-acid batteries, as I do). The manual
says something about not discharging more than 60 to 80 percent; what it
doesn't say is that when it's cold out, the actual capacity of the
batteries drops by at least 50%, and there's nothing in the car you can
look at that will tell you how far you can go before you start cutting
into your battery life. In my experience, if you go far enough to feel the
car get sluggish, the damage is done -- count on buying a new set of
batteries 3 to 6 months later.

So, as a result, I use my car to drive to work (6 miles), where it gets
recharged, and home again, where it gets recharged again. I drive it to
the supermarket and other very local destinations, but never more than a
few miles. If I need to go farther I use my gasoline car or take the
train.

I find that my car is underpowered for Massachusetts driving -- it
can't accelerate very well, especially on an uphill grade. I find
that other drivers sometimes assume I can get moving faster than I can,
and I have had a couple of close calls as a result. Now, I understand that
in subsequent years the Force was shipped with a thirteen-battery,
156-volt system, which probably performs better than my twelve-battery,
144-volt system.

Oh, and you won't get much heat out of the heater -- just enough to keep
the windshield defogged.

Rob
umarc@...

#572

From: "Don Buckshot" <buckshot@...>
Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 2:44 am
Subject: Re: [force_ev] Newbie Questions

buckshot@...

Adam,
I have to say that Solectria is willing to go all out to help me with trouble
shooting my car problems.  There really have been very few in the year that I
have been driving it.  All of these appear to have a common cause, the
batteries.

I sent them the charger to determine what was wrong and they checked it out,
changed out a fuse, tested it and sent it back to me for just a few bucks.

I sent my controller to them for an upgraded main board and they turned it
around in a couple weeks and the cost was modest.
They provided software to use to get error codes to find cause of problems.

See comments below.

Don
816-582-6891



----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Kuehn" <akuehn@...>
To: <force_ev@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: [force_ev] Newbie Questions


| >I'm sending my 1996 NiMH Force to Solectria this week for repair (of the
| >batteries, I think)  Actually wish I had a simple lead acid version.
| >Don
|
| Actually, this is a good segue for me.  I am looking to possibly
| acquire a used Force.  It has 13K miles and the original (PbA)
| battery pack.  The seller claims that it still has a 50-mile range.
| Assuming it has been well-cared for, what might be the typical
| maintenance requirements on this vehicle?

Unless something is broken, there should be almost nothing to do except charge
it and keep the tire pressure up.

|
| Some background on the purpose for the question:  I am not a car
| enthusiast in general, and I don't really know my way around an ICE
| car.  I've swapped out belts and tightened a few bolts, but I'm not
| much of a do-it-yourselfer.  On the other hand, I am very interested
| in environmental issues, and thought that an EV would be a good way
| for me to take care of my commuting needs in a relatively
| non-polluting way.  Sort of a "put my money where my mouth is"
| approach.

This we have in common.  I am interested in driving and promoting EVs.  I am no
longer into fiddling with cars as I once was.

|
| But I need to know if I'd be getting in over my head.  Is maintenance
| fairly straightforward?  Is Solectria still pretty good about
| customer support, even though they have stopped production?

YES!

  Are parts available fairly readily?  YES!

What are the typical problems
| encountered from simple day-to-day commuting, and will I be likely to
| be able to handle them myself or find the help I might need?

Should be none!

|
| I've spoken with a Solectria rep, and they sure sound nice on the
| phone.  But what are your real-world experiences?

See above.

|
| Thanks for your help,
| --
|
| -Adam Kuehn
| Durham, NC
|
|
| To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
| force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|