Thanks to Todd for his tire info. I have some other tire questions.  My '99
Force has worn through its tires way too quickly (from overinflating?
misalignment?) and I'm looking for replacements.  (We do almost all
around-town and country-road driving.)  The originals were P155/80 R13's but
people on this list seem to have been replacing those with P175/70 R13's.
Does anyone think that's a good/bad idea?  (There aren't that many P155/80's
out there.)
    Also, the Sumitomos that Todd and others have bought are summer tires and
I live in New England so does anyone have an idea for an all-weather tire?
Presumably that would increase rolling resistance but then again it's nice
not to go sliding into snow banks as happened this winter (no harm done this
time).
     This leads to the more philosophical question -- how to reduce rolling
resistance other than overinflating the tires or having them get bald (both
of which reduce control).  Someone posted a link to the Consumer Reports
article on rolling resistance, but the recommended tires were all R14 and
up.
     Wondering how others have dealt with these tire issues...
Joshua Goldstein
'99 Force
Amherst, MA



----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Martin" <larsthelean@...>
To: <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: [solectria_ev] New and Old Tires Review


> In April 2006, I bought my 1997 Solectria Force with 9500 miles on it.
> It came with Dunlop SP40 A/S tires (P155/80 R13 79S).  The previous
> owner explained that the original Force tires had died of old age (tire
> rot).  I kept the tire pressure at 44psi instead of the recommended
> 35psi for better rolling efficiency.  Over 2 years and 8 months, and
> 21000 miles, the Dunlop tires wore down to the steel belt.  My
> efficiency numbers had gradually improved with the very smooth tires
> gliding down the road.
>
> In December 2008, I bought Sumitomo HTR200 tires (P175/70 R13 82H)
> which fit on the same original rims, even though the tires are a
> slightly different size.  Discount Tire charged me $85.56 to install
> the tires with "computer spin balance" and I paid $43.40 per tire
> ($231.90 total including shipping etc) from www.tires-easy.com.  Total
> expense was $317.46  I chose these tires since they were recommended by
> the Green Seal report for low rolling resistance.
>
> So far, my efficiency has been pretty poor, with a loss of 15-20%.
> Some of this is because Discount Tires inflated my new tires to 32psi,
> and I haven't increased that yet (it's been cold outside).  A lot of
> this is because these are new tires instead of bald tires.
>
> Todd Martin
> '97 Force
> Elgin IL
>
>

I have a Geo Metro Convertible and installed Kumho Solus KR21, 175/70-13.  The
original tires were 155s as well.  I found two different programs that
calculated about 8% slower rotation of tires due to the larger diameter which
results in a slower spedo and odometer.  I ran the tires for 3 months to let
them get use to going around and tested mileage.  These tires result in about a
4% reduction in mileage from my old tires, tho the mileage per tank continues to
improve. 
I think it would be better to stay with the original size tires, unless you take
your Geo on the race track!  The larger tires with cost you in straight line
performance and may make the motor work harder which would result in lost range.
Michlien makes a tire that has very low rolling resistance and would probably
work fine in the 13" size.
Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.
I have a Dodge Rampage pickup which I converted to EV 6 years ago and love
it.  I will attach a picture.
doug



________________________________
From: Joshua Goldstein <jg@...>
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:21:56 AM
Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] New and Old Tires Review


Thanks to Todd for his tire info. I have some other tire questions. My '99
Force has worn through its tires way too quickly (from overinflating?
misalignment? ) and I'm looking for replacements. (We do almost all
around-town and country-road driving.) The originals were P155/80 R13's but
people on this list seem to have been replacing those with P175/70 R13's.
Does anyone think that's a good/bad idea? (There aren't that many P155/80's
out there.)
Also, the Sumitomos that Todd and others have bought are summer tires and
I live in New England so does anyone have an idea for an all-weather tire?
Presumably that would increase rolling resistance but then again it's nice
not to go sliding into snow banks as happened this winter (no harm done this
time).
This leads to the more philosophical question -- how to reduce rolling
resistance other than overinflating the tires or having them get bald (both
of which reduce control). Someone posted a link to the Consumer Reports
article on rolling resistance, but the recommended tires were all R14 and
up.
Wondering how others have dealt with these tire issues...
Joshua Goldstein
'99 Force
Amherst, MA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Martin" <larsthelean@ yahoo.com>
To: <solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: [solectria_ev] New and Old Tires Review

> In April 2006, I bought my 1997 Solectria Force with 9500 miles on it.
> It came with Dunlop SP40 A/S tires (P155/80 R13 79S). The previous
> owner explained that the original Force tires had died of old age (tire
> rot). I kept the tire pressure at 44psi instead of the recommended
> 35psi for better rolling efficiency. Over 2 years and 8 months, and
> 21000 miles, the Dunlop tires wore down to the steel belt. My
> efficiency numbers had gradually improved with the very smooth tires
> gliding down the road.
>
> In December 2008, I bought Sumitomo HTR200 tires (P175/70 R13 82H)
> which fit on the same original rims, even though the tires are a
> slightly different size. Discount Tire charged me $85.56 to install
> the tires with "computer spin balance" and I paid $43.40 per tire
> ($231.90 total including shipping etc) from www.tires-easy. com. Total
> expense was $317.46 I chose these tires since they were recommended by
> the Green Seal report for low rolling resistance.
>
> So far, my efficiency has been pretty poor, with a loss of 15-20%.
> Some of this is because Discount Tires inflated my new tires to 32psi,
> and I haven't increased that yet (it's been cold outside). A lot of
> this is because these are new tires instead of bald tires.
>
> Todd Martin
> '97 Force
> Elgin IL
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Joshua,

Let me give you an update.

The original tire installer (Discount Tires) inflated the Sumitomo's to 32psi
and I had poor efficiency numbers.  In February, I increased the tire pressure
to the maximum recommended on the tire sidewall: 55psi.  This made a BIG
difference, and I now have efficiency numbers just as good as my former
completely bald (with steel belt showing) Dunlops.

Regarding the tire sizes, I did not have any problems in switching from P155/80
R13 to P175/70 R13.  The original rims worked just fine.

I drove the car in Chicago area winter (February on) with the Sumitomo's at
55psi without any complaints.  Yes, I did get stuck in the driveway once with 6
inches of snow.  I won't blame the tires on that though.

I like the new tires and now recommend them.

Best regards,
Todd Martin
'97 Force
Elgin, IL

--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Joshua Goldstein" <jg@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks to Todd for his tire info. I have some other tire questions.  My '99
> Force has worn through its tires way too quickly (from overinflating?
> misalignment?) and I'm looking for replacements.  (We do almost all
> around-town and country-road driving.)  The originals were P155/80 R13's but
> people on this list seem to have been replacing those with P175/70 R13's.
> Does anyone think that's a good/bad idea?  (There aren't that many P155/80's
> out there.)
>    Also, the Sumitomos that Todd and others have bought are summer tires and
> I live in New England so does anyone have an idea for an all-weather tire?
> Presumably that would increase rolling resistance but then again it's nice
> not to go sliding into snow banks as happened this winter (no harm done this
> time).
>     This leads to the more philosophical question -- how to reduce rolling
> resistance other than overinflating the tires or having them get bald (both
> of which reduce control).  Someone posted a link to the Consumer Reports
> article on rolling resistance, but the recommended tires were all R14 and
> up.
>     Wondering how others have dealt with these tire issues...
> Joshua Goldstein
> '99 Force
> Amherst, MA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd Martin" <larsthelean@...>
> To: <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:44 PM
> Subject: [solectria_ev] New and Old Tires Review
>
>
> > In April 2006, I bought my 1997 Solectria Force with 9500 miles on it.
> > It came with Dunlop SP40 A/S tires (P155/80 R13 79S).  The previous
> > owner explained that the original Force tires had died of old age (tire
> > rot).  I kept the tire pressure at 44psi instead of the recommended
> > 35psi for better rolling efficiency.  Over 2 years and 8 months, and
> > 21000 miles, the Dunlop tires wore down to the steel belt.  My
> > efficiency numbers had gradually improved with the very smooth tires
> > gliding down the road.
> >
> > In December 2008, I bought Sumitomo HTR200 tires (P175/70 R13 82H)
> > which fit on the same original rims, even though the tires are a
> > slightly different size.  Discount Tire charged me $85.56 to install
> > the tires with "computer spin balance" and I paid $43.40 per tire
> > ($231.90 total including shipping etc) from www.tires-easy.com.  Total
> > expense was $317.46  I chose these tires since they were recommended by
> > the Green Seal report for low rolling resistance.
> >
> > So far, my efficiency has been pretty poor, with a loss of 15-20%.
> > Some of this is because Discount Tires inflated my new tires to 32psi,
> > and I haven't increased that yet (it's been cold outside).  A lot of
> > this is because these are new tires instead of bald tires.
> >
> > Todd Martin
> > '97 Force
> > Elgin IL
> >
> >
>

I have reluctanty come to the conclusion that I should sell my 1997 Force and I
thought I would offer it on the group first. It


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am very intersted.

cbliss@...



From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of catoauto@...
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:49 AM
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale



I have reluctanty come to the conclusion that I should sell my 1997 Force
and I thought I would offer it on the group first. It








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry about partial last post (I shouldn't try to multitask). Here is the specs
on the Force. It has 4780 miles on it, it has air conditioning and electric heat
with the timed preheat. Body and interior are in real nice condition. but the
coating on the hubcaps is starting to come off. I purchased it from the local
County Govt. and they purchased it from the federal property program out of New
Jersey. When I got it the voltage side of the volt/amp gauge did not work but
every thing else did. I put New AGM batteries in it and they got out of balance
and I took them out to have them tested and when I put them back in the AMP/HR
gauge quit working. The green light still comes on when the batteries are fully
charged. I just checked the pack voltage yesterday and it was 188V.  The
batteries will only go about 5 miles now before they hit limp mode so I am sure
I ruined them. I put 2000 miles on them and they are about 1.5 years old.  My
asking price is $8000.00. If anyone would like more info or would like pictures
emailed I can be reached at Catoauto@... ,or by calling 920-775-9676.

Thanks,
Jeff Nichols


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I have a Geo Metro Convertible and installed Kumho Solus KR21, 175/70-13.  The
>original tires were 155s as well.  I found two different programs that
>calculated about 8% slower rotation of tires due to the larger diameter which
>results in a slower spedo and odometer.

I'm confused.  Did you have 155/80R13 before?  I thought (see
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=46) that
the rim-to-tread distance was proportional to the product of the first
two numbers.  155*0.80 = 124mm, 175*0.70 = 122.5mm, nearly the same.

In any event, wider tires (175mm vs. 155mm) don't seem desirable.  For
efficiency, you want narrow tires with lots of pressure, like a
bicycle.

                                         Ken

Hi again from Doug,
I live in the San Francisco bay area and go over highway 17 to Santa Cruz weekly
and I use to pull the grades in 4th gear with ease.  The new tires require 3rd
on a couple of the steapest grades.  They are bigger around but I didn't measure
the old ones.  Sorry bout that...
doug

________________________________
From: Ken Olum <kdo@...>
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 7:38:59 AM
Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: New and Old Tires Review


>I have a Geo Metro Convertible and installed Kumho Solus KR21, 175/70-13. The
>original tires were 155s as well. I found two different programs that
>calculated about 8% slower rotation of tires due to the larger diameter which
>results in a slower spedo and odometer.

I'm confused. Did you have 155/80R13 before? I thought (see
http://www.tirerack .com/tires/ tiretech/ techpage. jsp?techid= 46) that
the rim-to-tread distance was proportional to the product of the first
two numbers. 155*0.80 = 124mm, 175*0.70 = 122.5mm, nearly the same.

In any event, wider tires (175mm vs. 155mm) don't seem desirable. For
efficiency, you want narrow tires with lots of pressure, like a
bicycle.

Ken




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Charlie,



Based on his message I expect that there is one bad battery in the pack that
needs to be replaced.  No big deal and the price is right.



-Will



From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Bliss
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:56 AM
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale



I am very intersted.

cbliss@... <mailto:cbliss%40cbliss.com>

From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
] On
Behalf Of catoauto@... <mailto:catoauto%40tm.net>
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:49 AM
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale

I have reluctanty come to the conclusion that I should sell my 1997 Force
and I thought I would offer it on the group first. It

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would figure your going to have to replace the pack.

Yes it might have one bad battery and you might get a few more miles out
them but AGM batteries are very difficult to keep in balance. Even with very a
very sophisticated BMS it has to be a really superior battery to survive any
time at all in an EV when charged in series. Even the best battery with the
perfect algorithm will not last any where near as long as the Deka gel battery.
Charging AGM batteries in series and long life is just not going to happen.
They really need to be charged and balanced individually.

Solectria figured this out when they built these. And is it was very  good
decision. I have gone though several AGM brands only to have them fail  early.
This was with very high end OEM Ford and GM battery management systems
monitoring each battery.

Don



In a message dated 4/3/2009 9:56:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
will@... writes:




Charlie,

Based on his message I expect that there is one bad battery  in the pack that
needs to be replaced. No big deal and the price is  right.

-Will

From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
[mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) ]
  On
Behalf Of Charles Bliss
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:56 AM
To:  _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
Subject:  RE: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale

I am very intersted.

_cbliss@..._ (mailto:cbliss@...)   <mailto:cbliss%mailto:cbmai>

From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
<mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
[mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
  <mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
] On
Behalf Of  _catoauto@..._ (mailto:catoauto@...)
<mailto:catoauto%mailto:c>
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:49  AM
To: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
<mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
Subject:  [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale

I have reluctanty come to the  conclusion that I should sell my 1997 Force
and I thought I would offer it  on the group first. It

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]




**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've had success with balancing batteries in my truck conversion using
Soneil 1212SRs, one per 12V segment in the string. You should be able
to put 13 of these (total 156VDC nominal, 5A output) on a 15A 120VAC
circuit without blowing a fuse, as I've used 12 easily. They are a
"smart" charger.

As my truck is using 6V GC batteries, I will be further optimizing to
use individual 6V chargers (Soneil 604CC) and adding a Paktrakr. I see
that Soneil also has smaller 12V chargers (1A and 2A) if all you want
to do is balance batteries after using your bulk charger, and when
idle. The advantage of 5A was that I then rarely used the bulk charger.

http://www.soneil.com/12_volt.html

This method is also allowing me to more easily mix older and new
batteries, and thus make each battery last longer. I have experienced
a 30% improvement in battery life using the 1212SRs over just using my
bulk charger.

I have no connection with Soneil or Paktrakr - it's just the products
that I use. Other brands may also be suitable for use in series strings.

Tips on using Soneil 1212SR, and other 12V chargers connected to a
series string:
1) Double check each charger that the outputs are isolated from both
ground and input leads before connecting to the pack. I had 2 shorted
units with negative output shorted to the metal case - see #2! Soneil
was notified and I've been assured this was corrected in their
manufacture process.
2) Fuse all connections (max 20A) to the battery as close to the
battery terminal as possible. If any chargers have ground shorts, you
will really appreciate this! There is no fuse in the 1212SR!
3) If using extension wiring from batteries to a terminal block,
again, use a fuse as close to the battery terminal as possible, and
suitable gauge wire (I used 12 guage). Also, as these are "smart"
chargers that occasionally read the voltage of the battery, and have a
"pulse" phase (see specs), you don't want to share a wire between 2
chargers (eg. positive of one charger and negative of another charger
on the same wire to the same point in the pack) since a wire has a
resistance and thus a measurable voltage when current is flowing. If
you want each charger to truly maintain the battery it is connected
to, use dedicated wiring from both charger outputs to both battery
terminals without sharing these wires with other chargers/batteries.
4) Check calibration periodically - best done with a Paktrakr or other
monitoring device to ensure each battery/charger completed the
expected charge cycle. Note that having separate chargers also helps
deal with the imbalance that a Paktrakr can cause (sucks a small
current from first battery in the string monitored by a remote).
5) If mounting the charger bricks together, use a 1/2 inch spacer of
some type, and provide a fan to circulate air around the chargers. If
they get too hot by being packed in too tightly, they will power down
(and appear to have completed the cycle). Again, use a monitoring
system to ensure each battery completed it's charge cycle.

Cheers,
Allan

On 2009-Apr-3, at 1:32 PM, theoldcars@... wrote:

> I would figure your going to have to replace the pack.
>
> Yes it might have one bad battery and you might get a few more miles
> out
> them but AGM batteries are very difficult to keep in balance. Even
> with very a
> very sophisticated BMS it has to be a really superior battery to
> survive any
> time at all in an EV when charged in series. Even the best battery
> with the
> perfect algorithm will not last any where near as long as the Deka
> gel battery.
> Charging AGM batteries in series and long life is just not going to
> happen.
> They really need to be charged and balanced individually.
>
> Solectria figured this out when they built these. And is it was very
> good
> decision. I have gone though several AGM brands only to have them
> fail early.
> This was with very high end OEM Ford and GM battery management systems
> monitoring each battery.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> In a message dated 4/3/2009 9:56:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> will@... writes:
>
> Charlie,
>
> Based on his message I expect that there is one bad battery in the
> pack that
> needs to be replaced. No big deal and the price is right.
>
> -Will
>
> From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> )
> [mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> ) ]
> On
> Behalf Of Charles Bliss
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:56 AM
> To: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> )
> Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale
>
> I am very intersted.
>
> _cbliss@..._ (mailto:cbliss@...) <mailto:cbliss%mailto:cbmai
> >
>
> From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> )
> <mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
> [mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> )
> <mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
> ] On
> Behalf Of _catoauto@..._ (mailto:catoauto@...)
> <mailto:catoauto%mailto:c>
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:49 AM
> To: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> )
> <mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
> Subject: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale
>
> I have reluctanty come to the conclusion that I should sell my 1997
> Force
> and I thought I would offer it on the group first. It
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner
> for $10 or
> less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wolf:  Travel and a broken computer interrupted my repair efforts on my
idle Solectria.  I did download the user manual to which you referred,
before leaving on a trip.  Now I've run the first test that you
suggested -- shorted pins 1 and 14 -- no "thunk" observed.
My plan is to open the case and check that 12v and ground, and pins 1
and 14, are actually connected to the "drive" -- i.e. check that the
connector is okay on those pins.  Beyond that, I don't know what to do.
Have you a suggestion beyond that first test?
Your help is sure appreciated!
Ray


--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Wolf" <wolf@...> wrote:
>
>
> All my info came from page 25 in the user manual:
> http://www.wolftronix.com/amc320/Manual_AMC_III.pdf  :)
>
>
> Wolf
> *wags his tail*
> www.wolftronix.com
>
> > By the way . . .
> > Your recommendations suggest that you have drawings, schematics, or
> > something that we don't have.  E.g. You know which terminal in the
> > 25-terminal connector is used for what purpose.
> >
> > Is there information here that you might be willing to share?
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Yeah, when I say "Drive" I mean the AMC 325 Motor Controller. ;)
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_drive
> >>
> >> The terminology is different depending on where you work, or what
you
> > have
> >> been exposed to...
> >>
> >> In my day job, I make these:
> >> http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/brochures/S92bro.htm
> >> And we call the motor controllers "drives". :)
> >>
> >> Anyway, intresting bit of information... So it was all working fine
> > and
> >> then he replaced the batteries and now it does not work anymore...
> >>
> >> Did it work for a little bit and then die after replacing the
> > batteries?
> >>
> >> Or did it not work at all after replacing them?
> >>
> >> Do you have head lights? Radio? Etc...?
> >>
> >> Also, check to make sure there is not a short between the battery
> > stack
> >> positive or negative terminal to chasis ground (vehicle frame).
> >>
> >> If everything else is good, then I would guess that during
disasembly
> > and
> >> removal of the batteries (or installation of the new batteries),
and
> >> important wire broke in a connector... I would do a visual
inspection
> > of
> >> all the connectors that where removed and plugged back in.
> >>
> >> Solectria wiring, especially there crimped wires are not that good:
> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/E10/images/P5240145.jpg
> >>
> >> Fixed connector:
> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/E10/images/P5240147.jpg
> >>
> >> I also recently replaced all the connectors on my truck, cause they
> > where
> >> all rusted and intermittantly working:
> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/amc320_connector
> >>
> >> Wolf
> >> *wags his tail*
> >> www.wolftronix.com
> >>
> >> > Thank you, Wolf!   Much here for us to check out.  We have, by
the
> > way,
> >> > checked that stack power is right up there around 165 volts.  I
> > didn't
> >> > mention this in my initial explanation, but my tech guy replaced
the
> >> > battery stack in kind the day the problem appeared.  He has done
> > this
> >> > about 15 times before -- once for me, in 2003.  With the old
> > batteries,
> >> > the car ran fine -- just not very far!  With the new ones, it
hasn't
> > yet
> >> > moved under its own power.   All the work he did has been checked
> > over,
> >> > and over, and over again.  Stack power and fuses are good!
> >> >
> >> > Just to be sure I understand the instructions, you use the word
> > "drive"
> >> > in several places, and in some of them it isn't clear to me just
> > what
> >> > you mean.  Let's see if I can find an example:
> >> >
> >> > "First unplug main power from the drive"    Is that the power to
the
> >> > controller?  The 240v ac to the whole car?  Or one of the
connectors
> >> > visible when I raise the hood?
> >> >
> >> > I expect he will know what 25-pin connector you are speaking
about,
> > and
> >> > I may be able to figure that out myself, in the daylight.  I'll
try,
> > in
> >> > the morning.
> >> >
> >> > "something is bad inside the drive"  -- again, does that mean
inside
> > the
> >> > controller?
> >> >
> >> > Sorry to be so dumb about the terminology.  I'm a long-retired
> >> > electronics engineer, but I've never worked on power equipment or
> > motor
> >> > controllers -- just radios and such.  <g>
> >> >
> >> > I sure do appreciate your help!
> >> >
> >> > Ray
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Totaly not fair... I did not know there where control boxes out
> >> > there... :P
> >> >>
> >> >> I am building my own AMC control box:
> >> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/AMC_Control/
> >> >>
> >> >> Still need to finish wiring it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Also, I put my RS422 to RS232 adapter in the box too. ;)
> >> >>
> >> >> I now have 1 motor and 3 AMC drives to fix, so I am investing in
my
> >> > own
> >> >> test equipment, much better then taking parts off my truck to
test
> >> >> repaired parts. :)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway... To get the drive to come on, you don't need any
external
> >> > power
> >> >> supplies other then the main battery power.
> >> >>
> >> >> First unplug main power from the drive and measure with a volt
> > meter
> >> > that
> >> >> you have stack voltage present and your fuse is not blown.
> >> >>
> >> >> If stack power is good, then unplug the 25-pin connector and
short
> > out
> >> > pin
> >> >> 1 to pin 14 (on the controller side), if you hear a "thunk" then
> > the
> >> >> standby and main power supply are working... if you hear
nothing,
> >> > well,
> >> >> then something is bad inside the drive.
> >> >>
> >> >> If you get the "thunk" then connect the 25-pin connector back to
> > your
> >> > car,
> >> >> turn on the key switch and see if you hear the same "thunk".
> >> >>
> >> >> If not then its a problem in the ignition box in your car.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> If you do get the "thunk", then the problem might be in the
> >> > interlocks, or
> >> >> the power setting signal, or the throttle signal...
> >> >>
> >> >> Testing the interlocks:
> >> >>
> >> >> First, turn off the key switch and unplug the 25 pin connector.
> > Then
> >> > using
> >> >> an ohm meter measure the resistance between pins 1 and 11 on the
25
> >> > pin
> >> >> connector (vehicle side, not the motor controller side).
> >> >>
> >> >> With the battery charger plugged in, it should read around 0
ohms
> >> > (short).
> >> >> With the battery charger un-plugged, it should read around
infinity
> >> > (open).
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the forward / reverse /
neutral
> >> > switch.
> >> >>
> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 3, it should be an open circuit, when
in
> >> >> neutral or reverse. It should only be shorted when in forward.
> >> >>
> >> >> Next measure between pins 1 and 16, it should be an open
circuit,
> > when
> >> > in
> >> >> neutral or forward. It should only be shorted when in reverse.
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the throttle signal.
> >> >>
> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 26, the resistance should be around 0
> > ohms
> >> > when
> >> >> the throttle is not pressed, and vary all the way to 10K ohms
when
> >> > fully
> >> >> pressed.
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the power setting.
> >> >>
> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 18, the resistance should be around
1K
> > ohms
> >> > in
> >> >> economy, 5K ohms in normal, and 10K ohms when in performance.
(if
> > you
> >> > have
> >> >> a power setting pot, then it will vary from 0 to 10K ohms).
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hope this helps. :)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Wolf
> >> >> *wags his tail*
> >> >> www.wolftronix.com
> >> >>
> >> >> > My need:  There are two safety interlock circuits in the
> > Solectria
> >> > motor
> >> >> > control system that prevent activation: 1) when power is
turned
> > on
> >> > and the
> >> >> > direction control is not in neutral, and, 2) when the battery
> >> > charger is
> >> >> > on – i.e. when the car is plugged in.  I seek information
> > about
> >> > these
> >> >> > interlocks, one of which appears to be locked "on" in my
> > Solectria.
> >> > At
> >> >> > least that is an explanation for the observed symptoms.
> > Everything
> >> >> > appears normal except that pressing the accelerator does
nothing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > My technical advisor has an instrument made by Solectria to
test
> > the
> >> >> > controller – i.e. the large box with "Solectria" on the
top
> >> > – which when
> >> >> > connected shows nothing at all.  His interpretation is that
power
> >> > within
> >> >> > the controller has been interrupted, and we assume the cause
to
> > be
> >> > an
> >> >> > interlock circuit.  We know that 12v is present at the
connector
> >> > leading
> >> >> > to the controller, but that is in a separate cable from the
one
> >> > leading
> >> >> > from the "Ignition" box located under the dashboard, just
above
> > the
> >> >> > steering column.  He has a block diagram that shows the two
> >> > interlock
> >> >> > circuits to be associated with the cable between the ignition
box
> >> > and the
> >> >> > controller, but it gives not a clue as to how they work.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Has anyone had and solved a similar problem?  Does anyone have
> >> > knowledge
> >> >> > of just how those interlocks work?  Does anyone have a
suggestion
> > as
> >> > to
> >> >> > how I should proceed?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

I read in the fine print in the manual, that the battery voltage needs to be
applied for a minute before shorting the pins. It worked for me.

  Thanks,Bill S
Ph 832-338-3080
www.hstech.biz
www.promotingevs.com




________________________________
From: Ray Alden <rmalden_2000@...>
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 5:37:16 PM
Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Interlock circuits


Wolf:  Travel and a broken computer interrupted my repair efforts on my
idle Solectria.  I did download the user manual to which you referred,
before leaving on a trip.  Now I've run the first test that you
suggested -- shorted pins 1 and 14 -- no "thunk" observed.
My plan is to open the case and check that 12v and ground, and pins 1
and 14, are actually connected to the "drive" -- i.e. check that the
connector is okay on those pins.  Beyond that, I don't know what to do.
Have you a suggestion beyond that first test?
Your help is sure appreciated!
Ray

--- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" <wolf@...> wrote:
>
>
> All my info came from page 25 in the user manual:
> http://www.wolftron ix.com/amc320/ Manual_AMC_ III.pdf :)
>
>
> Wolf
> *wags his tail*
> www.wolftronix. com
>
> > By the way . . .
> > Your recommendations suggest that you have drawings, schematics, or
> > something that we don't have.  E.g. You know which terminal in the
> > 25-terminal connector is used for what purpose.
> >
> > Is there information here that you might be willing to share?
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Yeah, when I say "Drive" I mean the AMC 325 Motor Controller. ;)
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Servo_drive
> >>
> >> The terminology is different depending on where you work, or what
you
> > have
> >> been exposed to...
> >>
> >> In my day job, I make these:
> >> http://www.frasca. com/web_pages/ brochures/ S92bro.htm
> >> And we call the motor controllers "drives". :)
> >>
> >> Anyway, intresting bit of information. .. So it was all working fine
> > and
> >> then he replaced the batteries and now it does not work anymore...
> >>
> >> Did it work for a little bit and then die after replacing the
> > batteries?
> >>
> >> Or did it not work at all after replacing them?
> >>
> >> Do you have head lights? Radio? Etc...?
> >>
> >> Also, check to make sure there is not a short between the battery
> > stack
> >> positive or negative terminal to chasis ground (vehicle frame).
> >>
> >> If everything else is good, then I would guess that during
disasembly
> > and
> >> removal of the batteries (or installation of the new batteries),
and
> >> important wire broke in a connector... I would do a visual
inspection
> > of
> >> all the connectors that where removed and plugged back in.
> >>
> >> Solectria wiring, especially there crimped wires are not that good:
> >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/E10/ images/P5240145. jpg
> >>
> >> Fixed connector:
> >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/E10/ images/P5240147. jpg
> >>
> >> I also recently replaced all the connectors on my truck, cause they
> > where
> >> all rusted and intermittantly working:
> >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/amc320_ connector
> >>
> >> Wolf
> >> *wags his tail*
> >> www.wolftronix. com
> >>
> >> > Thank you, Wolf!   Much here for us to check out.  We have, by
the
> > way,
> >> > checked that stack power is right up there around 165 volts.  I
> > didn't
> >> > mention this in my initial explanation, but my tech guy replaced
the
> >> > battery stack in kind the day the problem appeared.  He has done
> > this
> >> > about 15 times before -- once for me, in 2003.  With the old
> > batteries,
> >> > the car ran fine -- just not very far!  With the new ones, it
hasn't
> > yet
> >> > moved under its own power.   All the work he did has been checked
> > over,
> >> > and over, and over again.  Stack power and fuses are good!
> >> >
> >> > Just to be sure I understand the instructions, you use the word
> > "drive"
> >> > in several places, and in some of them it isn't clear to me just
> > what
> >> > you mean.  Let's see if I can find an example:
> >> >
> >> > "First unplug main power from the drive"    Is that the power to
the
> >> > controller?  The 240v ac to the whole car?  Or one of the
connectors
> >> > visible when I raise the hood?
> >> >
> >> > I expect he will know what 25-pin connector you are speaking
about,
> > and
> >> > I may be able to figure that out myself, in the daylight.  I'll
try,
> > in
> >> > the morning.
> >> >
> >> > "something is bad inside the drive"  -- again, does that mean
inside
> > the
> >> > controller?
> >> >
> >> > Sorry to be so dumb about the terminology.  I'm a long-retired
> >> > electronics engineer, but I've never worked on power equipment or
> > motor
> >> > controllers -- just radios and such.  <g>
> >> >
> >> > I sure do appreciate your help!
> >> >
> >> > Ray
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Totaly not fair... I did not know there where control boxes out
> >> > there... :P
> >> >>
> >> >> I am building my own AMC control box:
> >> >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/AMC_ Control/
> >> >>
> >> >> Still need to finish wiring it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Also, I put my RS422 to RS232 adapter in the box too. ;)
> >> >>
> >> >> I now have 1 motor and 3 AMC drives to fix, so I am investing in
my
> >> > own
> >> >> test equipment, much better then taking parts off my truck to
test
> >> >> repaired parts. :)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway... To get the drive to come on, you don't need any
external
> >> > power
> >> >> supplies other then the main battery power.
> >> >>
> >> >> First unplug main power from the drive and measure with a volt
> > meter
> >> > that
> >> >> you have stack voltage present and your fuse is not blown.
> >> >>
> >> >> If stack power is good, then unplug the 25-pin connector and
short
> > out
> >> > pin
> >> >> 1 to pin 14 (on the controller side), if you hear a "thunk" then
> > the
> >> >> standby and main power supply are working... if you hear
nothing,
> >> > well,
> >> >> then something is bad inside the drive.
> >> >>
> >> >> If you get the "thunk" then connect the 25-pin connector back to
> > your
> >> > car,
> >> >> turn on the key switch and see if you hear the same "thunk".
> >> >>
> >> >> If not then its a problem in the ignition box in your car.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> If you do get the "thunk", then the problem might be in the
> >> > interlocks, or
> >> >> the power setting signal, or the throttle signal...
> >> >>
> >> >> Testing the interlocks:
> >> >>
> >> >> First, turn off the key switch and unplug the 25 pin connector.
> > Then
> >> > using
> >> >> an ohm meter measure the resistance between pins 1 and 11 on the
25
> >> > pin
> >> >> connector (vehicle side, not the motor controller side).
> >> >>
> >> >> With the battery charger plugged in, it should read around 0
ohms
> >> > (short).
> >> >> With the battery charger un-plugged, it should read around
infinity
> >> > (open).
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the forward / reverse /
neutral
> >> > switch.
> >> >>
> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 3, it should be an open circuit, when
in
> >> >> neutral or reverse. It should only be shorted when in forward.
> >> >>
> >> >> Next measure between pins 1 and 16, it should be an open
circuit,
> > when
> >> > in
> >> >> neutral or forward. It should only be shorted when in reverse.
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the throttle signal.
> >> >>
> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 26, the resistance should be around 0
> > ohms
> >> > when
> >> >> the throttle is not pressed, and vary all the way to 10K ohms
when
> >> > fully
> >> >> pressed.
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the power setting.
> >> >>
> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 18, the resistance should be around
1K
> > ohms
> >> > in
> >> >> economy, 5K ohms in normal, and 10K ohms when in performance.
(if
> > you
> >> > have
> >> >> a power setting pot, then it will vary from 0 to 10K ohms).
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hope this helps. :)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Wolf
> >> >> *wags his tail*
> >> >> www.wolftronix. com
> >> >>
> >> >> > My need:  There are two safety interlock circuits in the
> > Solectria
> >> > motor
> >> >> > control system that prevent activation: 1) when power is
turned
> > on
> >> > and the
> >> >> > direction control is not in neutral, and, 2) when the battery
> >> > charger is
> >> >> > on – i.e. when the car is plugged in.  I seek information
> > about
> >> > these
> >> >> > interlocks, one of which appears to be locked "on" in my
> > Solectria.
> >> > At
> >> >> > least that is an explanation for the observed symptoms.
> > Everything
> >> >> > appears normal except that pressing the accelerator does
nothing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > My technical advisor has an instrument made by Solectria to
test
> > the
> >> >> > controller – i.e. the large box with "Solectria" on the
top
> >> > – which when
> >> >> > connected shows nothing at all.  His interpretation is that
power
> >> > within
> >> >> > the controller has been interrupted, and we assume the cause
to
> > be
> >> > an
> >> >> > interlock circuit.  We know that 12v is present at the
connector
> >> > leading
> >> >> > to the controller, but that is in a separate cable from the
one
> >> > leading
> >> >> > from the "Ignition" box located under the dashboard, just
above
> > the
> >> >> > steering column.  He has a block diagram that shows the two
> >> > interlock
> >> >> > circuits to be associated with the cable between the ignition
box
> >> > and the
> >> >> > controller, but it gives not a clue as to how they work.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Has anyone had and solved a similar problem?  Does anyone have
> >> > knowledge
> >> >> > of just how those interlocks work?  Does anyone have a
suggestion
> > as
> >> > to
> >> >> > how I should proceed?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I looked at these chargers before and think it is probably the future of
charging.
  The chargers that are offer now have some problem though, they are not
temperature
  compensated and are not designed to handle the temperature they may be exposed
to when charging in an enclosed trunk.
  They are very light though but have no fan that might help them when exposed to
the
high temperatures they will encounter as an on board charger.
  Thanks for the information it was very accurate and helpful.

Eric Fisher
www.SiliconeBatteriesUSA.com


--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Allan Poulsen <sparkyev_ca@...> wrote:
>
> I've had success with balancing batteries in my truck conversion using
> Soneil 1212SRs, one per 12V segment in the string. You should be able
> to put 13 of these (total 156VDC nominal, 5A output) on a 15A 120VAC
> circuit without blowing a fuse, as I've used 12 easily. They are a
> "smart" charger.
>
> As my truck is using 6V GC batteries, I will be further optimizing to
> use individual 6V chargers (Soneil 604CC) and adding a Paktrakr. I see
> that Soneil also has smaller 12V chargers (1A and 2A) if all you want
> to do is balance batteries after using your bulk charger, and when
> idle. The advantage of 5A was that I then rarely used the bulk charger.
>
> http://www.soneil.com/12_volt.html
>
> This method is also allowing me to more easily mix older and new
> batteries, and thus make each battery last longer. I have experienced
> a 30% improvement in battery life using the 1212SRs over just using my
> bulk charger.
>
> I have no connection with Soneil or Paktrakr - it's just the products
> that I use. Other brands may also be suitable for use in series strings.
>
> Tips on using Soneil 1212SR, and other 12V chargers connected to a
> series string:
> 1) Double check each charger that the outputs are isolated from both
> ground and input leads before connecting to the pack. I had 2 shorted
> units with negative output shorted to the metal case - see #2! Soneil
> was notified and I've been assured this was corrected in their
> manufacture process.
> 2) Fuse all connections (max 20A) to the battery as close to the
> battery terminal as possible. If any chargers have ground shorts, you
> will really appreciate this! There is no fuse in the 1212SR!
> 3) If using extension wiring from batteries to a terminal block,
> again, use a fuse as close to the battery terminal as possible, and
> suitable gauge wire (I used 12 guage). Also, as these are "smart"
> chargers that occasionally read the voltage of the battery, and have a
> "pulse" phase (see specs), you don't want to share a wire between 2
> chargers (eg. positive of one charger and negative of another charger
> on the same wire to the same point in the pack) since a wire has a
> resistance and thus a measurable voltage when current is flowing. If
> you want each charger to truly maintain the battery it is connected
> to, use dedicated wiring from both charger outputs to both battery
> terminals without sharing these wires with other chargers/batteries.
> 4) Check calibration periodically - best done with a Paktrakr or other
> monitoring device to ensure each battery/charger completed the
> expected charge cycle. Note that having separate chargers also helps
> deal with the imbalance that a Paktrakr can cause (sucks a small
> current from first battery in the string monitored by a remote).
> 5) If mounting the charger bricks together, use a 1/2 inch spacer of
> some type, and provide a fan to circulate air around the chargers. If
> they get too hot by being packed in too tightly, they will power down
> (and appear to have completed the cycle). Again, use a monitoring
> system to ensure each battery completed it's charge cycle.
>
> Cheers,
> Allan
>
> On 2009-Apr-3, at 1:32 PM, theoldcars@... wrote:
>
> > I would figure your going to have to replace the pack.
> >
> > Yes it might have one bad battery and you might get a few more miles
> > out
> > them but AGM batteries are very difficult to keep in balance. Even
> > with very a
> > very sophisticated BMS it has to be a really superior battery to
> > survive any
> > time at all in an EV when charged in series. Even the best battery
> > with the
> > perfect algorithm will not last any where near as long as the Deka
> > gel battery.
> > Charging AGM batteries in series and long life is just not going to
> > happen.
> > They really need to be charged and balanced individually.
> >
> > Solectria figured this out when they built these. And is it was very
> > good
> > decision. I have gone though several AGM brands only to have them
> > fail early.
> > This was with very high end OEM Ford and GM battery management systems
> > monitoring each battery.
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/3/2009 9:56:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > will@... writes:
> >
> > Charlie,
> >
> > Based on his message I expect that there is one bad battery in the
> > pack that
> > needs to be replaced. No big deal and the price is right.
> >
> > -Will
> >
> > From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > )
> > [mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > ) ]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Charles Bliss
> > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:56 AM
> > To: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > )
> > Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale
> >
> > I am very intersted.
> >
> > _cbliss@..._ (mailto:cbliss@...) <mailto:cbliss%mailto:cbmai
> > >
> >
> > From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > )
> > <mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
> > [mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > )
> > <mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
> > ] On
> > Behalf Of _catoauto@..._ (mailto:catoauto@...)
> > <mailto:catoauto%mailto:c>
> > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:49 AM
> > To: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > )
> > <mailto:solectria_mailto:solectriamail>
> > Subject: [solectria_ev] 1997 Force for sale
> >
> > I have reluctanty come to the conclusion that I should sell my 1997
> > Force
> > and I thought I would offer it on the group first. It
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner
> > for $10 or
> > less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello, does anyone know if either my 1993 geo metro solectria or my 1997 gm ev
pickup qualify for the new obama-signed 7500.00 tax credit. I need to do my
taxes very soon and would like to try it and need any input...i think it is
federal only requiring the 09 revised form 8834...if our vehicles are not on a
qualified list...we know they should be, and exceptions should be found or list
amended. Thanks. Kevin

Thought it was only for 2009 and they have to be new...

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 9:01 AM, gildeakevin <kpgildea@...> wrote:

>   Hello, does anyone know if either my 1993 geo metro solectria or my 1997
> gm ev pickup qualify for the new obama-signed 7500.00 tax credit. I need to
> do my taxes very soon and would like to try it and need any input...i think
> it is federal only requiring the 09 revised form 8834...if our vehicles are
> not on a qualified list...we know they should be, and exceptions should be
> found or list amended. Thanks. Kevin
>
>
>



--
-Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was able to acquire an inductive (paddle) charger system that I believe was
used with the old EV1s.  I have the base unit and two car mounted modules.  Dose
any one have any schematics, wiring diagrams or specifications beyond the users
manual?  I could just use it for parts but it would be much more useful
operational.

Also, the Solectria brochures seem to imply that they could be used with
synchronous motors as well as non-synchronous(induction) motors.  Has any one
used a PM motor with a Solectria control?

Thanks,
  Tom

Ventilation is certainly important for any charger (and battery). When
using the 1212SR chargers, I have both ventilation of outside air into
the battery and charger area, and a fan directed at the bank of
chargers, with air gaps between chargers. Lower current chargers (1A
or 2A used strictly for balancing rather than to replace a bulk
charger) should have lower cooling requirements.

I certainly agree that temperature compensation (preferably with a
probe to be co-located with the battery) would be an improvement,
though the charge curves of the Soneil chargers are more gentle on a
battery at the latter stages than earlier generations of chargers.

Cheers,
Allan

On 2009-Apr-4, at 1:42 AM, ehsif727 wrote:

> The chargers that are offer now have some problem though, they are
> not temperature
> compensated and are not designed to handle the temperature they may
> be exposed
> to when charging in an enclosed trunk.
> They are very light though but have no fan that might help them when
> exposed to the
> high temperatures they will encounter as an on board charger.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scroll to the very bottom of this page for some info on paddle chargers.
<http://www.hawkins.info/LPI>

  Thanks,Bill S
Ph 832-338-3080
www.hstech.biz
www.promotingevs.com




________________________________
From: tom_fw_texas <tom_emag@...>
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:36:15 AM
Subject: [solectria_ev] Inductive charger data


I was able to acquire an inductive (paddle) charger system that I believe was
used with the old EV1s.  I have the base unit and two car mounted modules.  Dose
any one have any schematics, wiring diagrams or specifications beyond the users
manual?  I could just use it for parts but it would be much more useful
operational.

Also, the Solectria brochures seem to imply that they could be used with
synchronous motors as well as non-synchronous( induction) motors.  Has any one
used a PM motor with a Solectria control?

Thanks,
Tom




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,
The EV1 did use an inductive system, the Toyota Rav4EV is probably the remaining
primary user. Solectria also offered the inductive option and it is most often
seen in the pickups (at 144V.)

There are primarily 2 versions out there. Referred to as small paddle and large
paddle. This refers to the size of the paddle on what is commonly referred to as
the charger (the unit that hangs on the wall.) You can use a small paddle in a
older large paddle inlet with a adapter but you can't use a large paddle in a
small inlet. Small was the latest and "better" version.

The main problem you will have is that the charger and inlet unit work together.
The profile for the batteries is basically supplied by the inlet (part in the
car) to the paddle unit. You will need to find a inlet for your particular
battery pack or figure out how to modify an inlet so it does what you want. 
Here in northern CA I have inductive chargers almost every few blocks. I tried
to find a operational 156V Pba inlet but couldn't.

Other than being convenient, if the infrastructure is there, inductive charging
will cost you a bit more on your electric bill. Inductive charging has been
"abandoned" and the new EV charging infrastructure is back to conductive. With a
new and different connector.

In CA the inductive units are still being serviced as there is a fairly large
RAV4EV fleet with a lot of clout. The paddles can be easily damaged and repair
parts are rare.

Try contacting Tom Dowling you can find his email address in the charging
section of the EAA online info for CA. Tom watches over the charging
infrastructure in CA.

Mike R
97 Force



--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "tom_fw_texas" <tom_emag@...> wrote:
>
> I was able to acquire an inductive (paddle) charger system that I believe was
used with the old EV1s.  I have the base unit and two car mounted modules.  Dose
any one have any schematics, wiring diagrams or specifications beyond the users
manual?  I could just use it for parts but it would be much more useful
operational.
>
> Also, the Solectria brochures seem to imply that they could be used with
synchronous motors as well as non-synchronous(induction) motors.  Has any one
used a PM motor with a Solectria control?
>
> Thanks,
>  Tom
>

Thanks to all for the information.  I'll try going down this road a bit further
as it looks like an interesting design if not way overly complex.


Do you have any recommendations on a source for a more current technology
(conductive) plug system?

Tom

------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "ldr214" <replytome@...> wrote:
>
> Tom,
> The EV1 did use an inductive system, the Toyota Rav4EV is probably the
remaining primary user. Solectria also offered the inductive option and it is
most often seen in the pickups (at 144V.)
>
> There are primarily 2 versions out there. Referred to as small paddle and
large paddle. This refers to the size of the paddle on what is commonly referred
to as the charger (the unit that hangs on the wall.) You can use a small paddle
in a older large paddle inlet with a adapter but you can't use a large paddle in
a small inlet. Small was the latest and "better" version.
>
> The main problem you will have is that the charger and inlet unit work
together. The profile for the batteries is basically supplied by the inlet (part
in the car) to the paddle unit. You will need to find a inlet for your
particular battery pack or figure out how to modify an inlet so it does what you
want.  Here in northern CA I have inductive chargers almost every few blocks. I
tried to find a operational 156V Pba inlet but couldn't.
>
> Other than being convenient, if the infrastructure is there, inductive
charging will cost you a bit more on your electric bill. Inductive charging has
been "abandoned" and the new EV charging infrastructure is back to conductive.
With a new and different connector.
>
> In CA the inductive units are still being serviced as there is a fairly large
RAV4EV fleet with a lot of clout. The paddles can be easily damaged and repair
parts are rare.
>
> Try contacting Tom Dowling you can find his email address in the charging
section of the EAA online info for CA. Tom watches over the charging
infrastructure in CA.
>
> Mike R
> 97 Force
>
>
>
> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "tom_fw_texas" <tom_emag@> wrote:
> >
> > I was able to acquire an inductive (paddle) charger system that I believe
was used with the old EV1s.  I have the base unit and two car mounted modules. 
Dose any one have any schematics, wiring diagrams or specifications beyond the
users manual?  I could just use it for parts but it would be much more useful
operational.
> >
> > Also, the Solectria brochures seem to imply that they could be used with
synchronous motors as well as non-synchronous(induction) motors.  Has any one
used a PM motor with a Solectria control?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >  Tom
> >
>

A while ago I had to replace the holder for the KLKD30 fuse that goes
between the charger and the battery pack on my Force.  I used a
Littelfuse LEB fuse holder.  But recently, this fuse holder developed
an intermittent fault that I discussed in message 5094.  It's not a
very good design, because on one end the connector just abuts the end
of the fuse.  Cleaning the contacts did not solve the problem, so I
replaced the fuse holder with a Ferraz Shawmut USM1.  This is
essentially the type of fuseholder that you would find inside a
cabinet where the two ends of the fuse are held by clips, combined
with an enclosure that allows you to insert and remove the fuse
without touching it.  I hope this will solve my problem permanently.

                                         Ken

Help us get this press release out. Send it to your friends. If you have media
contacts, please get it to them. This is the last big push to get the media
focused on this historic event at its grand finally. Any and all help is
welcome. If you have a good idea just do it, don't ask for permission. It is
already granted.

Joe

_______________________________________________________________________

Plug-in Hybrid "The Spirit of DC" Becomes First to Visit all 48 States
_______________________________________________________________________

      On April 3, 2009 at 1:31 PM, the Spirit of DC, a plug-in hybrid electric
vehicle (PHEV) became the first vehicle of its kind to have visited all 48
states of the contiguous United States of America. "The Spirit of DC became an
All American," says "EV Jerry" Asher, the driver and co-chair of the effort. The
history making record was set after Asher and the Spirit of DC crossed over the
Georgia/Alabama line while on US 78. This is the beginning of the end for the
Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle All Around America (PHEV3A) Team that is made up
mainly from members of the Electric Vehicle Association of Washington, DC
(EVA/DC). "It is certainly a mile stone," says the PHEV3A co-chair, Joseph Lado,
"However, it isn't over yet. Jerry is going to finish his trip right where he
started it last year on the National Mall in front of the US Capitol. Jerry
started the tour at EPA's 4th Annual National Sustainable Design Expo and we
will finish the trip at the 5th one, which is going to be held from noon on
April 18 to 3 pm April 20, 2009. That will be the official end of Jerry's PHEV3A
tour. Plug-in cars when coupled with renewable energy make personal
transportation sustainable. We are planning a big press moment at the Expo,
hoping that it will focus attention from the public and the media on sustainable
design through the expo, and plug-in cars with the Spirit of DC and Jerry
Asher."



To catch all the coverage that the PHEV3A tour has generated, Google: Jerry
Asher plug-in hybrid. You will find video news reports, blogs, news articles and
much more. You can also visit www.SpiritofDC.com or www.PHEV3A.com and read
Asher's blogs from the road. There is an interactive map that shows the Spirit
of DC's location.



After the 5th Annual National Sustainable Design Expo Asher plans to help out in
another sustainable transportation venture. This venture is called the Fun Run
in the Sun, (www.FunRunintheSun.org) and will be piloted by EVA/DC vice
president Charlie Garlow. This isn't going to be another PHEV going all around
America, but rather Garlow will be driving a specially modified three wheeled
electric motorcycle that will be pulling a trailer of solar panels. The solar
panels will provide the three wheeled vehicle with a significant amount of
electricity for Garlow to make his journey. The Fun Run in the Sun team includes
Jo Reyes, the vehicle builder and former racing mechanic, Jerry Asher, lead
vehicle driver, Joe Lado, who will coordinate public outreach and Chip Gribben,
who will be the team's webmaster.



To be present at the PHEV3A/Spirit of DC grand finally press conference and the
opening of the 5th Annual National Sustainable Design EXPO please contact:

Mary Wigginton

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW

Washington, DC 20046

Phone: 202-343-9861

E-mail: wigginton.mary@...



To contact EVJerry Asher call (202) 486-5450, Joe Lado Email JoeLado@....

If after shorting out pins 1 and 14 with no "thunk" then either the
standby supply has failed or the main supply has failed.

The next thing I would check is the fuse:
http://www.wolftronix.com/amc325_1114/images/IMG_6910.jpg
located on the right hand side of the pic, under the lable (caution full
battery stack voltage is present in that section).

The other thing you could easily check is this diode:
http://www.wolftronix.com/amc320/images/IMG_7298.jpg
Middle of the pic

I had one drive where it was the part that was keeping it from turning it
on... But i think that might be a rare problem.

Wolf
*wags his tail*
www.wolftronix.com

> Wolf:  Travel and a broken computer interrupted my repair efforts on my
> idle Solectria.  I did download the user manual to which you referred,
> before leaving on a trip.  Now I've run the first test that you
> suggested -- shorted pins 1 and 14 -- no "thunk" observed.
> My plan is to open the case and check that 12v and ground, and pins 1
> and 14, are actually connected to the "drive" -- i.e. check that the
> connector is okay on those pins.  Beyond that, I don't know what to do.
> Have you a suggestion beyond that first test?
> Your help is sure appreciated!
> Ray
>
>
> --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Wolf" <wolf@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> All my info came from page 25 in the user manual:
>> http://www.wolftronix.com/amc320/Manual_AMC_III.pdf  :)
>>
>>
>> Wolf
>> *wags his tail*
>> www.wolftronix.com
>>
>> > By the way . . .
>> > Your recommendations suggest that you have drawings, schematics, or
>> > something that we don't have.  E.g. You know which terminal in the
>> > 25-terminal connector is used for what purpose.
>> >
>> > Is there information here that you might be willing to share?
>> >
>> > Ray
>> >
>> > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yeah, when I say "Drive" I mean the AMC 325 Motor Controller. ;)
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_drive
>> >>
>> >> The terminology is different depending on where you work, or what
> you
>> > have
>> >> been exposed to...
>> >>
>> >> In my day job, I make these:
>> >> http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/brochures/S92bro.htm
>> >> And we call the motor controllers "drives". :)
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, intresting bit of information... So it was all working fine
>> > and
>> >> then he replaced the batteries and now it does not work anymore...
>> >>
>> >> Did it work for a little bit and then die after replacing the
>> > batteries?
>> >>
>> >> Or did it not work at all after replacing them?
>> >>
>> >> Do you have head lights? Radio? Etc...?
>> >>
>> >> Also, check to make sure there is not a short between the battery
>> > stack
>> >> positive or negative terminal to chasis ground (vehicle frame).
>> >>
>> >> If everything else is good, then I would guess that during
> disasembly
>> > and
>> >> removal of the batteries (or installation of the new batteries),
> and
>> >> important wire broke in a connector... I would do a visual
> inspection
>> > of
>> >> all the connectors that where removed and plugged back in.
>> >>
>> >> Solectria wiring, especially there crimped wires are not that good:
>> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/E10/images/P5240145.jpg
>> >>
>> >> Fixed connector:
>> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/E10/images/P5240147.jpg
>> >>
>> >> I also recently replaced all the connectors on my truck, cause they
>> > where
>> >> all rusted and intermittantly working:
>> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/amc320_connector
>> >>
>> >> Wolf
>> >> *wags his tail*
>> >> www.wolftronix.com
>> >>
>> >> > Thank you, Wolf!   Much here for us to check out.  We have, by
> the
>> > way,
>> >> > checked that stack power is right up there around 165 volts.  I
>> > didn't
>> >> > mention this in my initial explanation, but my tech guy replaced
> the
>> >> > battery stack in kind the day the problem appeared.  He has done
>> > this
>> >> > about 15 times before -- once for me, in 2003.  With the old
>> > batteries,
>> >> > the car ran fine -- just not very far!  With the new ones, it
> hasn't
>> > yet
>> >> > moved under its own power.   All the work he did has been checked
>> > over,
>> >> > and over, and over again.  Stack power and fuses are good!
>> >> >
>> >> > Just to be sure I understand the instructions, you use the word
>> > "drive"
>> >> > in several places, and in some of them it isn't clear to me just
>> > what
>> >> > you mean.  Let's see if I can find an example:
>> >> >
>> >> > "First unplug main power from the drive"    Is that the power to
> the
>> >> > controller?  The 240v ac to the whole car?  Or one of the
> connectors
>> >> > visible when I raise the hood?
>> >> >
>> >> > I expect he will know what 25-pin connector you are speaking
> about,
>> > and
>> >> > I may be able to figure that out myself, in the daylight.  I'll
> try,
>> > in
>> >> > the morning.
>> >> >
>> >> > "something is bad inside the drive"  -- again, does that mean
> inside
>> > the
>> >> > controller?
>> >> >
>> >> > Sorry to be so dumb about the terminology.  I'm a long-retired
>> >> > electronics engineer, but I've never worked on power equipment or
>> > motor
>> >> > controllers -- just radios and such.  <g>
>> >> >
>> >> > I sure do appreciate your help!
>> >> >
>> >> > Ray
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Totaly not fair... I did not know there where control boxes out
>> >> > there... :P
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am building my own AMC control box:
>> >> >> http://www.wolftronix.com/AMC_Control/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Still need to finish wiring it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Also, I put my RS422 to RS232 adapter in the box too. ;)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I now have 1 motor and 3 AMC drives to fix, so I am investing in
> my
>> >> > own
>> >> >> test equipment, much better then taking parts off my truck to
> test
>> >> >> repaired parts. :)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway... To get the drive to come on, you don't need any
> external
>> >> > power
>> >> >> supplies other then the main battery power.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> First unplug main power from the drive and measure with a volt
>> > meter
>> >> > that
>> >> >> you have stack voltage present and your fuse is not blown.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If stack power is good, then unplug the 25-pin connector and
> short
>> > out
>> >> > pin
>> >> >> 1 to pin 14 (on the controller side), if you hear a "thunk" then
>> > the
>> >> >> standby and main power supply are working... if you hear
> nothing,
>> >> > well,
>> >> >> then something is bad inside the drive.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If you get the "thunk" then connect the 25-pin connector back to
>> > your
>> >> > car,
>> >> >> turn on the key switch and see if you hear the same "thunk".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If not then its a problem in the ignition box in your car.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If you do get the "thunk", then the problem might be in the
>> >> > interlocks, or
>> >> >> the power setting signal, or the throttle signal...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Testing the interlocks:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> First, turn off the key switch and unplug the 25 pin connector.
>> > Then
>> >> > using
>> >> >> an ohm meter measure the resistance between pins 1 and 11 on the
> 25
>> >> > pin
>> >> >> connector (vehicle side, not the motor controller side).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With the battery charger plugged in, it should read around 0
> ohms
>> >> > (short).
>> >> >> With the battery charger un-plugged, it should read around
> infinity
>> >> > (open).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the forward / reverse /
> neutral
>> >> > switch.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 3, it should be an open circuit, when
> in
>> >> >> neutral or reverse. It should only be shorted when in forward.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Next measure between pins 1 and 16, it should be an open
> circuit,
>> > when
>> >> > in
>> >> >> neutral or forward. It should only be shorted when in reverse.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the throttle signal.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 26, the resistance should be around 0
>> > ohms
>> >> > when
>> >> >> the throttle is not pressed, and vary all the way to 10K ohms
> when
>> >> > fully
>> >> >> pressed.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the power setting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 18, the resistance should be around
> 1K
>> > ohms
>> >> > in
>> >> >> economy, 5K ohms in normal, and 10K ohms when in performance.
> (if
>> > you
>> >> > have
>> >> >> a power setting pot, then it will vary from 0 to 10K ohms).
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hope this helps. :)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Wolf
>> >> >> *wags his tail*
>> >> >> www.wolftronix.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > My need:  There are two safety interlock circuits in the
>> > Solectria
>> >> > motor
>> >> >> > control system that prevent activation: 1) when power is
> turned
>> > on
>> >> > and the
>> >> >> > direction control is not in neutral, and, 2) when the battery
>> >> > charger is
>> >> >> > on – i.e. when the car is plugged in.  I seek information
>> > about
>> >> > these
>> >> >> > interlocks, one of which appears to be locked "on" in my
>> > Solectria.
>> >> > At
>> >> >> > least that is an explanation for the observed symptoms.
>> > Everything
>> >> >> > appears normal except that pressing the accelerator does
> nothing.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > My technical advisor has an instrument made by Solectria to
> test
>> > the
>> >> >> > controller – i.e. the large box with "Solectria" on the
> top
>> >> > – which when
>> >> >> > connected shows nothing at all.  His interpretation is that
> power
>> >> > within
>> >> >> > the controller has been interrupted, and we assume the cause
> to
>> > be
>> >> > an
>> >> >> > interlock circuit.  We know that 12v is present at the
> connector
>> >> > leading
>> >> >> > to the controller, but that is in a separate cable from the
> one
>> >> > leading
>> >> >> > from the "Ignition" box located under the dashboard, just
> above
>> > the
>> >> >> > steering column.  He has a block diagram that shows the two
>> >> > interlock
>> >> >> > circuits to be associated with the cable between the ignition
> box
>> >> > and the
>> >> >> > controller, but it gives not a clue as to how they work.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Has anyone had and solved a similar problem?  Does anyone have
>> >> > knowledge
>> >> >> > of just how those interlocks work?  Does anyone have a
> suggestion
>> > as
>> >> > to
>> >> >> > how I should proceed?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>

With all due respect, it is a Toyota Prius.  While both my wife and I drive
Toyotas and love them, it would have been much more significant if it was
American Engineered and built.



From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Joseph Lado
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:18 PM
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [solectria_ev] Plug-in Hybrid "The Spirit of DC" Becomes First to
Visit all 48 States



Help us get this press release out. Send it to your friends. If you have
media contacts, please get it to them. This is the last big push to get the
media focused on this historic event at its grand finally. Any and all help
is welcome. If you have a good idea just do it, don't ask for permission. It
is already granted.

Joe



,_._,___



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Bill:  I take it you mean full pack voltage, is that correct?
When I made that test -- pins 1 to 14 -- 12v control voltage was
applied, but I think that I'd pulled the high-voltage connector.  I'd
better do that over again!
Can you tell me where in the manual you found that "fine print"?  I'm
just learning my way around in that book.
Ray



--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Bill or Dorothy Swann
<dbswann4@...> wrote:
>
> I read in the fine print in the manual, that the battery voltage needs
to be applied for a minute before shorting the pins. It worked for me.
>
>  Thanks,Bill S
> Ph 832-338-3080
> www.hstech.biz
> www.promotingevs.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ray Alden rmalden_2000@...
> To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 5:37:16 PM
> Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Interlock circuits
>
>
> Wolf:  Travel and a broken computer interrupted my repair efforts on
my
> idle Solectria.  I did download the user manual to which you referred,
> before leaving on a trip.  Now I've run the first test that you
> suggested -- shorted pins 1 and 14 -- no "thunk" observed.
> My plan is to open the case and check that 12v and ground, and pins 1
> and 14, are actually connected to the "drive" -- i.e. check that the
> connector is okay on those pins.  Beyond that, I don't know what to
do.
> Have you a suggestion beyond that first test?
> Your help is sure appreciated!
> Ray
>
> --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > All my info came from page 25 in the user manual:
> > http://www.wolftron ix.com/amc320/ Manual_AMC_ III.pdf :)
> >
> >
> > Wolf
> > *wags his tail*
> > www.wolftronix. com
> >
> > > By the way . . .
> > > Your recommendations suggest that you have drawings, schematics,
or
> > > something that we don't have.  E.g. You know which terminal in the
> > > 25-terminal connector is used for what purpose.
> > >
> > > Is there information here that you might be willing to share?
> > >
> > > Ray
> > >
> > > --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, when I say "Drive" I mean the AMC 325 Motor Controller. ;)
> > >>
> > >> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Servo_drive
> > >>
> > >> The terminology is different depending on where you work, or what
> you
> > > have
> > >> been exposed to...
> > >>
> > >> In my day job, I make these:
> > >> http://www.frasca. com/web_pages/ brochures/ S92bro.htm
> > >> And we call the motor controllers "drives". :)
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, intresting bit of information. .. So it was all working
fine
> > > and
> > >> then he replaced the batteries and now it does not work
anymore...
> > >>
> > >> Did it work for a little bit and then die after replacing the
> > > batteries?
> > >>
> > >> Or did it not work at all after replacing them?
> > >>
> > >> Do you have head lights? Radio? Etc...?
> > >>
> > >> Also, check to make sure there is not a short between the battery
> > > stack
> > >> positive or negative terminal to chasis ground (vehicle frame).
> > >>
> > >> If everything else is good, then I would guess that during
> disasembly
> > > and
> > >> removal of the batteries (or installation of the new batteries),
> and
> > >> important wire broke in a connector... I would do a visual
> inspection
> > > of
> > >> all the connectors that where removed and plugged back in.
> > >>
> > >> Solectria wiring, especially there crimped wires are not that
good:
> > >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/E10/ images/P5240145. jpg
> > >>
> > >> Fixed connector:
> > >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/E10/ images/P5240147. jpg
> > >>
> > >> I also recently replaced all the connectors on my truck, cause
they
> > > where
> > >> all rusted and intermittantly working:
> > >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/amc320_ connector
> > >>
> > >> Wolf
> > >> *wags his tail*
> > >> www.wolftronix. com
> > >>
> > >> > Thank you, Wolf!   Much here for us to check out.  We have, by
> the
> > > way,
> > >> > checked that stack power is right up there around 165 volts.  I
> > > didn't
> > >> > mention this in my initial explanation, but my tech guy
replaced
> the
> > >> > battery stack in kind the day the problem appeared.  He has
done
> > > this
> > >> > about 15 times before -- once for me, in 2003.  With the old
> > > batteries,
> > >> > the car ran fine -- just not very far!  With the new ones, it
> hasn't
> > > yet
> > >> > moved under its own power.   All the work he did has been
checked
> > > over,
> > >> > and over, and over again.  Stack power and fuses are good!
> > >> >
> > >> > Just to be sure I understand the instructions, you use the word
> > > "drive"
> > >> > in several places, and in some of them it isn't clear to me
just
> > > what
> > >> > you mean.  Let's see if I can find an example:
> > >> >
> > >> > "First unplug main power from the drive"    Is that the power
to
> the
> > >> > controller?  The 240v ac to the whole car?  Or one of the
> connectors
> > >> > visible when I raise the hood?
> > >> >
> > >> > I expect he will know what 25-pin connector you are speaking
> about,
> > > and
> > >> > I may be able to figure that out myself, in the daylight.  I'll
> try,
> > > in
> > >> > the morning.
> > >> >
> > >> > "something is bad inside the drive"  -- again, does that mean
> inside
> > > the
> > >> > controller?
> > >> >
> > >> > Sorry to be so dumb about the terminology.  I'm a long-retired
> > >> > electronics engineer, but I've never worked on power equipment
or
> > > motor
> > >> > controllers -- just radios and such.  <g>
> > >> >
> > >> > I sure do appreciate your help!
> > >> >
> > >> > Ray
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Totaly not fair... I did not know there where control boxes
out
> > >> > there... :P
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I am building my own AMC control box:
> > >> >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/AMC_ Control/
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Still need to finish wiring it.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Also, I put my RS422 to RS232 adapter in the box too. ;)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I now have 1 motor and 3 AMC drives to fix, so I am investing
in
> my
> > >> > own
> > >> >> test equipment, much better then taking parts off my truck to
> test
> > >> >> repaired parts. :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Anyway... To get the drive to come on, you don't need any
> external
> > >> > power
> > >> >> supplies other then the main battery power.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> First unplug main power from the drive and measure with a volt
> > > meter
> > >> > that
> > >> >> you have stack voltage present and your fuse is not blown.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If stack power is good, then unplug the 25-pin connector and
> short
> > > out
> > >> > pin
> > >> >> 1 to pin 14 (on the controller side), if you hear a "thunk"
then
> > > the
> > >> >> standby and main power supply are working... if you hear
> nothing,
> > >> > well,
> > >> >> then something is bad inside the drive.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If you get the "thunk" then connect the 25-pin connector back
to
> > > your
> > >> > car,
> > >> >> turn on the key switch and see if you hear the same "thunk".
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If not then its a problem in the ignition box in your car.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If you do get the "thunk", then the problem might be in the
> > >> > interlocks, or
> > >> >> the power setting signal, or the throttle signal...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Testing the interlocks:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> First, turn off the key switch and unplug the 25 pin
connector.
> > > Then
> > >> > using
> > >> >> an ohm meter measure the resistance between pins 1 and 11 on
the
> 25
> > >> > pin
> > >> >> connector (vehicle side, not the motor controller side).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> With the battery charger plugged in, it should read around 0
> ohms
> > >> > (short).
> > >> >> With the battery charger un-plugged, it should read around
> infinity
> > >> > (open).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the forward / reverse /
> neutral
> > >> > switch.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 3, it should be an open circuit,
when
> in
> > >> >> neutral or reverse. It should only be shorted when in forward.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Next measure between pins 1 and 16, it should be an open
> circuit,
> > > when
> > >> > in
> > >> >> neutral or forward. It should only be shorted when in reverse.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the throttle signal.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 26, the resistance should be around
0
> > > ohms
> > >> > when
> > >> >> the throttle is not pressed, and vary all the way to 10K ohms
> when
> > >> > fully
> > >> >> pressed.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the power setting.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 18, the resistance should be around
> 1K
> > > ohms
> > >> > in
> > >> >> economy, 5K ohms in normal, and 10K ohms when in performance.
> (if
> > > you
> > >> > have
> > >> >> a power setting pot, then it will vary from 0 to 10K ohms).
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hope this helps. :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Wolf
> > >> >> *wags his tail*
> > >> >> www.wolftronix. com
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > My need:  There are two safety interlock circuits in the
> > > Solectria
> > >> > motor
> > >> >> > control system that prevent activation: 1) when power is
> turned
> > > on
> > >> > and the
> > >> >> > direction control is not in neutral, and, 2) when the
battery
> > >> > charger is
> > >> >> > on â€" i.e. when the car is plugged in.  I seek
information
> > > about
> > >> > these
> > >> >> > interlocks, one of which appears to be locked "on" in my
> > > Solectria.
> > >> > At
> > >> >> > least that is an explanation for the observed symptoms.
> > > Everything
> > >> >> > appears normal except that pressing the accelerator does
> nothing.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > My technical advisor has an instrument made by Solectria to
> test
> > > the
> > >> >> > controller â€" i.e. the large box with "Solectria" on
the
> top
> > >> > â€" which when
> > >> >> > connected shows nothing at all.  His interpretation is that
> power
> > >> > within
> > >> >> > the controller has been interrupted, and we assume the cause
> to
> > > be
> > >> > an
> > >> >> > interlock circuit.  We know that 12v is present at the
> connector
> > >> > leading
> > >> >> > to the controller, but that is in a separate cable from the
> one
> > >> > leading
> > >> >> > from the "Ignition" box located under the dashboard, just
> above
> > > the
> > >> >> > steering column.  He has a block diagram that shows the two
> > >> > interlock
> > >> >> > circuits to be associated with the cable between the
ignition
> box
> > >> > and the
> > >> >> > controller, but it gives not a clue as to how they work.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Has anyone had and solved a similar problem?  Does anyone
have
> > >> > knowledge
> > >> >> > of just how those interlocks work?  Does anyone have a
> suggestion
> > > as
> > >> > to
> > >> >> > how I should proceed?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks for asking. It is mentioned on page 20 of this link at Kruspan
<http://www.kruspan.ch/assets/downloads/Manual_AMC_III_Kruspan_V042005.pdf>

  Thanks,Bill S
Ph 832-338-3080
www.hstech.biz
www.promotingevs.com




________________________________
From: Ray Alden <rmalden_2000@...>
To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 5:46:30 PM
Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Interlock circuits


Thanks, Bill:  I take it you mean full pack voltage, is that correct?
When I made that test -- pins 1 to 14 -- 12v control voltage was
applied, but I think that I'd pulled the high-voltage connector.  I'd
better do that over again!
Can you tell me where in the manual you found that "fine print"?  I'm
just learning my way around in that book.
Ray

--- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, Bill or Dorothy Swann
<dbswann4@.. .> wrote:
>
> I read in the fine print in the manual, that the battery voltage needs
to be applied for a minute before shorting the pins. It worked for me.
>
>  Thanks,Bill S
> Ph 832-338-3080
> www.hstech.biz
> www.promotingevs. com
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Ray Alden rmalden_2000@ ...
> To: solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 5:37:16 PM
> Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Interlock circuits
>
>
> Wolf:  Travel and a broken computer interrupted my repair efforts on
my
> idle Solectria.  I did download the user manual to which you referred,
> before leaving on a trip.  Now I've run the first test that you
> suggested -- shorted pins 1 and 14 -- no "thunk" observed.
> My plan is to open the case and check that 12v and ground, and pins 1
> and 14, are actually connected to the "drive" -- i.e. check that the
> connector is okay on those pins.  Beyond that, I don't know what to
do.
> Have you a suggestion beyond that first test?
> Your help is sure appreciated!
> Ray
>
> --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > All my info came from page 25 in the user manual:
> > http://www.wolftron ix.com/amc320/ Manual_AMC_ III.pdf :)
> >
> >
> > Wolf
> > *wags his tail*
> > www.wolftronix. com
> >
> > > By the way . . .
> > > Your recommendations suggest that you have drawings, schematics,
or
> > > something that we don't have.  E.g. You know which terminal in the
> > > 25-terminal connector is used for what purpose.
> > >
> > > Is there information here that you might be willing to share?
> > >
> > > Ray
> > >
> > > --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, when I say "Drive" I mean the AMC 325 Motor Controller. ;)
> > >>
> > >> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Servo_drive
> > >>
> > >> The terminology is different depending on where you work, or what
> you
> > > have
> > >> been exposed to...
> > >>
> > >> In my day job, I make these:
> > >> http://www.frasca. com/web_pages/ brochures/ S92bro.htm
> > >> And we call the motor controllers "drives". :)
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, intresting bit of information. .. So it was all working
fine
> > > and
> > >> then he replaced the batteries and now it does not work
anymore...
> > >>
> > >> Did it work for a little bit and then die after replacing the
> > > batteries?
> > >>
> > >> Or did it not work at all after replacing them?
> > >>
> > >> Do you have head lights? Radio? Etc...?
> > >>
> > >> Also, check to make sure there is not a short between the battery
> > > stack
> > >> positive or negative terminal to chasis ground (vehicle frame).
> > >>
> > >> If everything else is good, then I would guess that during
> disasembly
> > > and
> > >> removal of the batteries (or installation of the new batteries),
> and
> > >> important wire broke in a connector... I would do a visual
> inspection
> > > of
> > >> all the connectors that where removed and plugged back in.
> > >>
> > >> Solectria wiring, especially there crimped wires are not that
good:
> > >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/E10/ images/P5240145. jpg
> > >>
> > >> Fixed connector:
> > >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/E10/ images/P5240147. jpg
> > >>
> > >> I also recently replaced all the connectors on my truck, cause
they
> > > where
> > >> all rusted and intermittantly working:
> > >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/amc320_ connector
> > >>
> > >> Wolf
> > >> *wags his tail*
> > >> www.wolftronix. com
> > >>
> > >> > Thank you, Wolf!   Much here for us to check out.  We have, by
> the
> > > way,
> > >> > checked that stack power is right up there around 165 volts.  I
> > > didn't
> > >> > mention this in my initial explanation, but my tech guy
replaced
> the
> > >> > battery stack in kind the day the problem appeared.  He has
done
> > > this
> > >> > about 15 times before -- once for me, in 2003.  With the old
> > > batteries,
> > >> > the car ran fine -- just not very far!  With the new ones, it
> hasn't
> > > yet
> > >> > moved under its own power.   All the work he did has been
checked
> > > over,
> > >> > and over, and over again.  Stack power and fuses are good!
> > >> >
> > >> > Just to be sure I understand the instructions, you use the word
> > > "drive"
> > >> > in several places, and in some of them it isn't clear to me
just
> > > what
> > >> > you mean.  Let's see if I can find an example:
> > >> >
> > >> > "First unplug main power from the drive"    Is that the power
to
> the
> > >> > controller?  The 240v ac to the whole car?  Or one of the
> connectors
> > >> > visible when I raise the hood?
> > >> >
> > >> > I expect he will know what 25-pin connector you are speaking
> about,
> > > and
> > >> > I may be able to figure that out myself, in the daylight.  I'll
> try,
> > > in
> > >> > the morning.
> > >> >
> > >> > "something is bad inside the drive"  -- again, does that mean
> inside
> > > the
> > >> > controller?
> > >> >
> > >> > Sorry to be so dumb about the terminology.  I'm a long-retired
> > >> > electronics engineer, but I've never worked on power equipment
or
> > > motor
> > >> > controllers -- just radios and such.  <g>
> > >> >
> > >> > I sure do appreciate your help!
> > >> >
> > >> > Ray
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In solectria_ev@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolf" wolf@ wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Totaly not fair... I did not know there where control boxes
out
> > >> > there... :P
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I am building my own AMC control box:
> > >> >> http://www.wolftron ix.com/AMC_ Control/
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Still need to finish wiring it.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Also, I put my RS422 to RS232 adapter in the box too. ;)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I now have 1 motor and 3 AMC drives to fix, so I am investing
in
> my
> > >> > own
> > >> >> test equipment, much better then taking parts off my truck to
> test
> > >> >> repaired parts. :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Anyway... To get the drive to come on, you don't need any
> external
> > >> > power
> > >> >> supplies other then the main battery power.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> First unplug main power from the drive and measure with a volt
> > > meter
> > >> > that
> > >> >> you have stack voltage present and your fuse is not blown.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If stack power is good, then unplug the 25-pin connector and
> short
> > > out
> > >> > pin
> > >> >> 1 to pin 14 (on the controller side), if you hear a "thunk"
then
> > > the
> > >> >> standby and main power supply are working... if you hear
> nothing,
> > >> > well,
> > >> >> then something is bad inside the drive.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If you get the "thunk" then connect the 25-pin connector back
to
> > > your
> > >> > car,
> > >> >> turn on the key switch and see if you hear the same "thunk".
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If not then its a problem in the ignition box in your car.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If you do get the "thunk", then the problem might be in the
> > >> > interlocks, or
> > >> >> the power setting signal, or the throttle signal...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Testing the interlocks:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> First, turn off the key switch and unplug the 25 pin
connector.
> > > Then
> > >> > using
> > >> >> an ohm meter measure the resistance between pins 1 and 11 on
the
> 25
> > >> > pin
> > >> >> connector (vehicle side, not the motor controller side).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> With the battery charger plugged in, it should read around 0
> ohms
> > >> > (short).
> > >> >> With the battery charger un-plugged, it should read around
> infinity
> > >> > (open).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the forward / reverse /
> neutral
> > >> > switch.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 3, it should be an open circuit,
when
> in
> > >> >> neutral or reverse. It should only be shorted when in forward.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Next measure between pins 1 and 16, it should be an open
> circuit,
> > > when
> > >> > in
> > >> >> neutral or forward. It should only be shorted when in reverse.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the throttle signal.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 26, the resistance should be around
0
> > > ohms
> > >> > when
> > >> >> the throttle is not pressed, and vary all the way to 10K ohms
> when
> > >> > fully
> > >> >> pressed.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Assuming that it worked, next check the power setting.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Measure between pins 1 and 18, the resistance should be around
> 1K
> > > ohms
> > >> > in
> > >> >> economy, 5K ohms in normal, and 10K ohms when in performance.
> (if
> > > you
> > >> > have
> > >> >> a power setting pot, then it will vary from 0 to 10K ohms).
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hope this helps. :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Wolf
> > >> >> *wags his tail*
> > >> >> www.wolftronix. com
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > My need:  There are two safety interlock circuits in the
> > > Solectria
> > >> > motor
> > >> >> > control system that prevent activation: 1) when power is
> turned
> > > on
> > >> > and the
> > >> >> > direction control is not in neutral, and, 2) when the
battery
> > >> > charger is
> > >> >> > on â€" i.e. when the car is plugged in.  I seek
information
> > > about
> > >> > these
> > >> >> > interlocks, one of which appears to be locked "on" in my
> > > Solectria.
> > >> > At
> > >> >> > least that is an explanation for the observed symptoms.
> > > Everything
> > >> >> > appears normal except that pressing the accelerator does
> nothing.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > My technical advisor has an instrument made by Solectria to
> test
> > > the
> > >> >> > controller â€" i.e. the large box with "Solectria" on
the
> top
> > >> > â€" which when
> > >> >> > connected shows nothing at all.  His interpretation is that
> power
> > >> > within
> > >> >> > the controller has been interrupted, and we assume the cause
> to
> > > be
> > >> > an
> > >> >> > interlock circuit.  We know that 12v is present at the
> connector
> > >> > leading
> > >> >> > to the controller, but that is in a separate cable from the
> one
> > >> > leading
> > >> >> > from the "Ignition" box located under the dashboard, just
> above
> > > the
> > >> >> > steering column.  He has a block diagram that shows the two
> > >> > interlock
> > >> >> > circuits to be associated with the cable between the
ignition
> box
> > >> > and the
> > >> >> > controller, but it gives not a clue as to how they work.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Has anyone had and solved a similar problem?  Does anyone
have
> > >> > knowledge
> > >> >> > of just how those interlocks work?  Does anyone have a
> suggestion
> > > as
> > >> > to
> > >> >> > how I should proceed?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does it count that GM sold the technology to Toyota?

Ken

On Apr 5, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Charles Bliss wrote:

> With all due respect, it is a Toyota Prius. While both my wife and I
> drive
> Toyotas and love them, it would have been much more significant if
> it was
> American Engineered and built.
>
> From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> ] On
> Behalf Of Joseph Lado
> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:18 PM
> To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [solectria_ev] Plug-in Hybrid "The Spirit of DC" Becomes
> First to
> Visit all 48 States
>
> Help us get this press release out. Send it to your friends. If you
> have
> media contacts, please get it to them. This is the last big push to
> get the
> media focused on this historic event at its grand finally. Any and
> all help
> is welcome. If you have a good idea just do it, don't ask for
> permission. It
> is already granted.
>
> Joe
>
> ,_._,___
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"All 48 States"?  Have we lost two?

Granted, you can't drive a PHEV directly to Hawaii, but there still needs to
be either a qualifier or a date in there somewhere if you are going to use
"all" and "48 states" in the same sentence.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Martin
> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:16 PM
> To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Plug-in Hybrid "The Spirit of DC"
> Becomes First to Visit all 48 States
>
> Does it count that GM sold the technology to Toyota?
>
> Ken
>
> On Apr 5, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Charles Bliss wrote:
>
> > With all due respect, it is a Toyota Prius. While both my
> wife and I
> > drive
> > Toyotas and love them, it would have been much more significant if
> > it was
> > American Engineered and built.
> >
> > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ] On
> > Behalf Of Joseph Lado
> > Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:18 PM
> > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [solectria_ev] Plug-in Hybrid "The Spirit of DC" Becomes
> > First to
> > Visit all 48 States
> >
> > Help us get this press release out. Send it to your friends. If you
> > have
> > media contacts, please get it to them. This is the last big push to
> > get the
> > media focused on this historic event at its grand finally. Any and
> > all help
> > is welcome. If you have a good idea just do it, don't ask for
> > permission. It
> > is already granted.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > ,_._,___
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>

"visited all 48 states of the contiguous United States of America"

The Spirit has a PHEV conversion made in the US.
It is a nice feat that it has visited all those states
Come on down to the DC mall on April 17-19th. (Earth days) The Sprit is supposed
to be there

--- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Kuehn" <akuehn@...> wrote:
>
> "All 48 States"?  Have we lost two?
>
> Granted, you can't drive a PHEV directly to Hawaii, but there still needs to
> be either a qualifier or a date in there somewhere if you are going to use
> "all" and "48 states" in the same sentence.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Martin
> > Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:16 PM
> > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Plug-in Hybrid "The Spirit of DC"
> > Becomes First to Visit all 48 States
> >
> > Does it count that GM sold the technology to Toyota?
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > On Apr 5, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Charles Bliss wrote:
> >
> > > With all due respect, it is a Toyota Prius. While both my
> > wife and I
> > > drive
> > > Toyotas and love them, it would have been much more significant if
> > > it was
> > > American Engineered and built.
> > >
> > > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ] On
> > > Behalf Of Joseph Lado
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:18 PM
> > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Plug-in Hybrid "The Spirit of DC" Becomes
> > > First to
> > > Visit all 48 States
> > >
> > > Help us get this press release out. Send it to your friends. If you
> > > have
> > > media contacts, please get it to them. This is the last big push to
> > > get the
> > > media focused on this historic event at its grand finally. Any and
> > > all help
> > > is welcome. If you have a good idea just do it, don't ask for
> > > permission. It
> > > is already granted.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > ,_._,___
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>