Today I had a job in Hercules (a long drive in the company ICE).
On the way back I stopped at the Richmond Hill-Top Mall. I have
seen on the EV charging maps (see my second page) that this mall
had EV charging but I have never been there to verify it.

Personally I do not see myself using it as from Alameda, to take
Hwy 80 is very energy wasteful (like Hwy 280 its not flat and
uses an extra 30% of energy). And there is only one EVI ICS-200
charger (the model that would rather complain than give full
power to conversions).

I took the exit off Hwy 80, and cruised the Mall parking lots
searching for the chargers. The EV chargers at Sun Valley Mall
(Concord) is in front of the Macy's.

They were easy to find as the EV charging was the only parking
that was empty and in front of the Penny's. EV chargers should
never be installed in the front of a store. Gas cars park there,
and the public think the EV spots are not used. EV charging
should be installed in non perferrencial locations.

I checked the ICS-200 by pushing the charge button. If the
charger was on, it would have a digital woman's voice complaining
that the EV was not connected. The charger was not on.

I pulled the gen2 Magne Charger (large) paddle and waited for the
LCD display to light up. It was also off.

I was disgusted. Too many EV chargers installed with partial
funding from tax payer money, just to have a lame store/mall
manager turn them off. I have found turned off EV chargers at
listed Malls and Costcos.

I called the Mall management office. After wading through several
voice mail layers to ask for who would be in charge of the EV
chargers, I finally got the Mall manager, and he answered the
phone with, "Yea, want do you want? ..."

I told him who I was and that I represented the Electric Vehicle
community. I asked him if he knew that the EV chargers were off.

He said "no".

I told him his EV chargers were listed on the internet. There are
EV drivers that come long distances to charge and spend money at
his mall. It does your mall no good to install EV chargers and
then turn them off.

He said he would look into it.
Not to be blown off, I gave him my full name and telephone number
encase anyone approached him about EVs. I asked him to call me
when the EV chargers were back on.

He said he would have them on by the end of the day.

This means that the the EV chargers that are listed are not
necessarily on and the EV driver could have to work to get the
EV chargers turned back on.

What would be a better solution is to have a person near a public
EV charger, to adopt it, check it regularly and work to keep them
on.

In essence, we need Public EV Charger Guardians to keep them on
and available.

=====
Primary BruceDP@... , Alternate BruceDP@...
http://geocities.com/brucedp  EV List & Renewable Energy Editor
EV List Archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/
EVList instructions http://madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Forwarded to all ev lists. Apologies for repeats, but this issue affects
us all and it bears repeating!!

Later,          "A rainbow is only part of a circle." San Joser, CA
      ^ ^        Expert software development: http://www.migration.com/
      O o        Permanent:                   m.t.thompson@...
   ===-o-===     My catbox:                   http://www.madkatz.com/
Ack! Phththpph! Electric Vehicles:           http://members.aol.com/sjeaa/

Solar Electric (PV) http://www.madkatz.com/pv/index.html
Zero emissions from Home and Electric Vehicle, NO BLACKOUTS!
Sometimes I see gas cars... In my rearview mirror! http://www.gmev.com/
EV List Archive Owner,Administrator  http://www.crest.org/ev-list-archive/
Electric Vehicle Email List Instructions: (EVList members: Bookmark it!)
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:56:04 -0700
From: Greg Hanssen <greg@...>
To: ev1-club@..., listserv@...,
     sparrow_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EV1-CLUB] Urgent! AB1390 to the California Assembly on Tuesday

Tomorrow is the big day,
    Assemblyman Marco Antonio Firebaugh (D) will have his bill (AB1390)
opened to the assembly floor for a vote.  This is may be our last chance
to deal with this in the assembly.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_1351-1400/ab_1390_cfa_20010602_182
936_asm_floor.html

    AB1390 sets a dangerous precedent by allowing auto manufacturers
to buy out of environmental regulations, namely the ZEV program.  As
you know, the technology driving ZEV program requires major OEMs to
build thousands of zero emission (battery and fuel cell) vehicles, tens
of thousands of gas/electric hybrids and hundreds of thousands of
ultra clean normal gasoline cars.  AB1390 is supported by
the democratic latino caucus because it diverts money to local air
quality problems in disproportionately effected (lower income/minority)
areas.  Of course the republicans support it because it makes life
easier for big business.  While I support Assemblyman Firebaugh's
goal of cleaning up local air pollution in disproportionately effected
areas, I
cannot endorse the scrapping of one critical program to support another.
    There is no time left for snail-mail letters so please take some time
in the morning to call, fax or if all else fails, E-mail your assembly person
and tell them why they should oppose AB1390.  In particular here are some
prominent latino caucus members we need to target.  If you live in any of
the following areas it is especially important that you make your voice heard!


Assemblyman Manny Diaz (D-23)  San Jose area
                                  District Address
                           100 Paseo De San Antonio
                                        Suite 300
                                San Jose, CA 95113
                             Phone: (408) 269-6500
                               Fax: (408) 277-1036

                                Capitol Address
                                  P.O. Box 942849
                                      Room 2170
                          Sacramento, CA 94249-0001
                             Phone: (916) 319-2023

Assemblyman Simon Salinas (D-28) Hollister area
                                   District Address
                                   321 First Street
                                         Suite A
                                 Hollister, CA 95023
                             Phone: (831) 636-4890
                               Fax: (831) 636-4903

                               Capitol Address
                                  P.O. Box 942849
                                      Room 2175
                          Sacramento, CA 94249-0001
                             Phone: (916) 319-2028

Assemblyman Dario Frommer (D-43) Burbank/Glendale area
                                 District Address
                               111 East Broadway
                                       Suite 205
                               Glendale, CA 91205
                            Phone: (818) 240-6330
                              Fax: (818) 240-4632

                               Capitol Address
                                 P.O. Box 942849
                                     Room 2160
                        Sacramento, CA 94249-0001
                            Phone: (916) 319-2043

Assemblyman Juan Vargas (D-79) National City and I-5 south to the border
                                 District Address
                              2414 Hoover Avenue
                                         Suite A
                            National City, CA 91950
                            Phone: (619) 477-7979
                              Fax: (619) 477-0207

                               Capitol Address
                                 P.O. Box 942849
                                     Room 2188
                        Sacramento, CA 94249-0001
                            Phone: (916) 319-2079

Assemblywoman Gloria Negrete McLeod (D-61) Pomona/Montclair/Chino area
                              District Address
                          4959 Palo Verde Street
                                   Suite 108.C
                            Montclair, CA 91763
                          Phone: (909) 390-3280

                             Capitol Address
                               P.O. Box 942849
                                   Room 5175
                      Sacramento, CA 94249-0001
                          Phone: (916) 319-2061


   -- Greg Hanssen
Energy Control Systems Engineering, Inc
Production Electric Vehicle Drivers Coalition

"If you're one of those people who puts solar panels on your house
or drives a battery powered car, you might as well vote for Gore"
  -- Dick Cheney   Oct 3, 2000

Please choose your representative and use the sample letter below
[ BE SURE TO CORRECTLY FILL IN THE SPECIFIED AREAS ]

Assemblymember.Diaz@... (D-23) San Jose area

Assemblymember.Salinas@... (D-28) Hollister area

Assemblymember.Frommer@... (D-43) Burbank/Glendale area

Assemblymember.Vargas@... (D-79) National City and I-5
south to the border

Assemblymember.Mcleod@... (D-61) Pomona/Montclair/Chino
area




-
To: [YOUR ASSEMBLY MEMBER]

Dear Sir,

AB1390 sets a dangerous precedent by allowing auto manufacturers
to buy out of environmental regulations, namely the ZEV program.
As you know, the technology driving ZEV program requires major OEMs
to build thousands of zero emission (battery and fuel cell) vehicles,
tens of thousands of gas/electric hybrids and hundreds of thousands
of ultra clean normal gasoline cars.

AB1390 is supported by the democratic latino caucus because it
diverts money to local air quality problems in disproportionately
effected (lower income/minority) areas.  Of course the republicans
support it because it makes life easier for big business.

I cannot endorse cleaning up local air pollution in disproportionately
effected areas by scrapping one critical program to support another.

PLEASE do not let AB1390 pass.

[YOUR FULL NAME
  TELEPHONE NUMBER
  ADDRESS, CITY, STATE ZIP]

=====
Primary BruceDP@... , Alternate BruceDP@...
http://geocities.com/brucedp  EV List & Renewable Energy Editor
EV List Archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/
EVList instructions http://madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

I understand that the number of Amp/hrs in the battery pack depends on how
hard you want to work it and how long you want the batteries to last.

Can anyone recommend a good source (on the net, preferably) that gives more
detail on the trade-off?

Specifically, If I drain about 40 Amp/hrs out of the batteries, recharge and
then do it again am I shortening the life of the battery pack? How about if
I do this once a week?

Sorry about the basic question?

-Leonard

On 8 Jun 2001, at 8:38, Leonard Tramiel wrote:

> Specifically, If I drain about 40 Amp/hrs out of the batteries, recharge
> and then do it again am I shortening the life of the battery pack? How
> about if I do this once a week?

Every time you cycle (discharge and charge) a battery, you take a bit of
its life away.  Cycling it deeply (using a greater percentage of the
capacity) makes it age faster.  Drawing large amounts of current (amps,
not amp-hours) and/or operating the battery at high heat also speeds up
the aging process.

In theory it really doesn't matter whether you do it once a day or once a
week, each cycle ages the battery.  In practice, though, you may actually
get more cycles out of a battery that is cycled daily.  Batteries get
"lazy" when they sit unused, even for a few days.

There are many other factors in cycle life, including how good your
charger is, but this is the root of it.

But of course you can't drive the car without using the batteries.  So
your goal is to make them last as long as possible while using them
effectively.  It turns out that the most cost-effective use of a battery
is to use about 50% of its capacity.  That's the ideal compromise between
total number of cycles you can get in the battery's lifetime, and the
distance you can travel per cycle, yielding the greatest total mileage on
a set of batteries.

So for the most effective use of your Force's battery, take its capacity
in amp-hours at 50 amps (a reasonable average current if you drive
conservatively) and if possibly use no more than half this capacity
before recharging.

Here's an example.  Suppose you have Trojan 27TMH batteries.  These are
rated for 115 amp-hours, but at 50 amps can deliver only about 70 amp-
hours.  So for longest life and best cost-effectiveness, you should hold
your discharges to 35 amp-hours.  You should use less in winter when
capacity is lower.  In no case (except emergencies) should you withdraw
more than 56 amp-hours (80% discharged).

AND, here's the part that many people forget -- as your batteries age and
capacity diminishes, you need to adjust these figures to the actual
capacity.

I hope this helps answer the questions and isn't too confusing.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1979 General Engines ElectroPed 24vdc
1974 Honda Civic EV 96vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Thanks David,

Not confusing at all. I wonder if anyone can give me a more quantitative
reference than:
"Cycling it deeply ... makes it age faster"

-Leonard

>
> I hope this helps answer the questions and isn't too confusing.
>
>

On 10 Jun 2001, at 13:43, Leonard Tramiel wrote:

>  I wonder if anyone can give me a more quantitative
> reference than:
> "Cycling it deeply ... makes it age faster"

There is no one answer to this.  I have six different sources and each
one says something different.  Are you sitting down?  <g>

1.  A chart from the East Penn manual for Deka Dominator gel batteries:

Capacity withdrawn Typical life cycles

100% 	 200
50% 		 400
30% 		 1300
10% 		 2000

(why they don't give a figure for 80% is a mystery to me.)

2. For years, a "rule of thumb" has circulated that says the cycle life
of lead-acid batteries at 50% DOD is double that at 80%, and the cycle
life at 20% DOD is 5 times that at 50%.  (I have never seen an
authoritative source cited for this, but quite a few writers on batteries
repeat it.  OK, OK, an anonymous source isn't much of a source.  What can
I say.)

3. A chart for marine batteries from Interstate:

DOD 	 Cycles

100% 	 325
75% 		 550
50% 	 1,000
25% 	 2,200 (!)

4. A chart attributed to Optima Batteries, with cycle life claims for
their "yellow top" battery:

      http://www.commutercars.com/public/YTCycleLife.jpg

showing:

DOD 	 cycles
100%  200
80% 	 300
50% 	 1,200
25% 	 4,000 (!)
10% 	 4,600 (!!)

5. A Trojan chart for an unidentified battery (an unusually long-lived
one!):

Depth of discharge Number of cycles Total lifetime amp-hrs provided

10% 		 6,200 		 62,000
20% 		 5,200 	 104,000
30% 		 4,400 	 132,000
40% 		 3,700 	 148,000
50% 		 2,900 	 145,000
60% 		 2,400 	 144,000
70% 		 2,000 	 140,000
80% 		 1,700 	 136,000

6.  A chart for the Trojan T-125 6-volt battery:

DOD  cycles
100%  440
80% 	 565
60% 	 750
40% 	 1170
20% 	 2000
10% 	 3000

Not only do these charts not agree with one another (no surprise since
they are all different batteries), remember that they are undoubtedly
reporting tests under unspecified conditions -- they may be using BCI
standards, but maybe not.  It's safe to assume that battery manufacturers
choose test conditions most favorable to their products, so these could
be driving loads of only a few amps, or have unusual charging regimens,
or carefully regulated temperture. The figures may not extrapolate well
at all to the chaotic environment of a road EV.  Caveat emptor.

Adapting this last chart to the Trojan 27TMH that might be used in some
older Forces (admittedly dangerous since the 27TMH is significantly
different in design from the T-125), we get:

DOD  cycles

80%  300  (Trojan's published BCI cycle life rating for 27TMH)
50%  500
20%  1,050
10%  1,600

Using 1 amp-hour per mile as the benchmark, here are three of the charts
above, but now showing the actual use of such a battery in a Force.
We'll assume that you're a careful driver and can actually get 1 mile per
AH.

           East Penn 8G27 (57 ah at 50 amps)

DOD  cycles range total miles (cycles * range)
100% 200  57  11,400
50%  400  28.5  11,400
30%  1300  17  22,100
10%  2000  5.7  11,400

Hmm, that far right column is suspiciously consistent, isn't it?

           Trojan 27TMH (estimated life; 70 ah at 50 amps):

DOD  cycles range total miles
80%  300  56  16,800
50%  500  35  17,500
20%  1050  14  14,700
10%  1600 	 7 	 11,200

Optima yellow top (48 ah at 50 amps)

DOD  cycles range total miles
80%  300  38.4  11,520
50%  1,200 24  28,800
20%  4,100 9.6  39,360
10%  4,400 4.8  21,120

Remember when reading these charts that they estimate life under variable
conditions (which probably are nothing like what the batterys endure in a
road EV).  In the real world, none of these is likely to happen as the
charts predict.  For example, most users of Optimas in EVs will tell you
that a life of around 500 cycles is more typical of 50% DOD use.

So, DON'T try to use these charts to choose batteries!

The main lesson to take away from this is that you'll get the most
efficient use of your batteries when you try to use between 30% and 70%
of their capacity, then recharge.  In most industrial applications, the
aim is to size the battery at double the capacity actually needed in
order to take advantage of the 50% rule.

One last note.  If you drive 5 miles a day, don't conclude from these
charts that you should charge your 27TMHs every 7 days, or your
Sonnenscheins every 3 days.  It doesn't work that way.  Allowing a
discharged (or partly discharged) battery to sit for several hours
without charging will lead to sulfation, which causes early loss of
capacity and failure.  You should charge a battery as soon as possible
any time that you use more than 10% of its capacity, and never allow any
battery to sit more than 24 hours at anything less than 100% charged.

The bottom line is that maintaining batteries is just about as much art
as science.  We can make some general rules, but there are always going
to be lots of ifs and buts and guessing.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1979 General Engines ElectroPed 24vdc
1974 Honda Civic EV 96vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Thanks again!

-Leonard
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <roden@...>
To: <force_ev@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [force_ev] Battery Capacity


> The bottom line is that maintaining batteries is just about as much art
> as science.  We can make some general rules, but there are always going
> to be lots of ifs and buts and guessing.
>

I am in the process of buying a '96 Force with NiMH batteries about 2 years old.
They are represented as still able to provide a range of 50 + miles.
Where can I get some background material on these batteries and their care and
feeding?
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, MAEAA

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: David Roden (Akron OH USA)
   To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:38 PM
   Subject: Re: [force_ev] Battery Capacity


   On 10 Jun 2001, at 13:43, Leonard Tramiel wrote:

   >  I wonder if anyone can give me a more quantitative
   > reference than:
   > "Cycling it deeply ... makes it age faster"

   There is no one answer to this.  I have six different sources and each
   one says something different.  Are you sitting down?  <g>

   1.  A chart from the East Penn manual for Deka Dominator gel batteries:

   Capacity withdrawn      Typical life cycles

   100%                  200
   50%                        400
   30%                        1300
   10%                        2000

   (why they don't give a figure for 80% is a mystery to me.)

   2. For years, a "rule of thumb" has circulated that says the cycle life
   of lead-acid batteries at 50% DOD is double that at 80%, and the cycle
   life at 20% DOD is 5 times that at 50%.  (I have never seen an
   authoritative source cited for this, but quite a few writers on batteries
   repeat it.  OK, OK, an anonymous source isn't much of a source.  What can
   I say.)

   3. A chart for marine batteries from Interstate:

   DOD                  Cycles

   100%            325
   75%                  550
   50%                  1,000
   25%                  2,200 (!)

   4. A chart attributed to Optima Batteries, with cycle life claims for
   their "yellow top" battery:

        http://www.commutercars.com/public/YTCycleLife.jpg

   showing:

   DOD                  cycles
   100%            200
   80%                  300
   50%                  1,200
   25%                  4,000 (!)
   10%                  4,600 (!!)

   5. A Trojan chart for an unidentified battery (an unusually long-lived
   one!):

   Depth of discharge      Number of cycles      Total lifetime amp-hrs provided

   10%                        6,200                  62,000
   20%                        5,200                  104,000
   30%                        4,400                  132,000
   40%                        3,700                  148,000
   50%                        2,900                  145,000
   60%                        2,400                  144,000
   70%                        2,000                  140,000
   80%                        1,700                  136,000

   6.  A chart for the Trojan T-125 6-volt battery:

   DOD            cycles
   100%            440
   80%                  565
   60%                  750
   40%                  1170
   20%                  2000
   10%                  3000

   Not only do these charts not agree with one another (no surprise since
   they are all different batteries), remember that they are undoubtedly
   reporting tests under unspecified conditions -- they may be using BCI
   standards, but maybe not.  It's safe to assume that battery manufacturers
   choose test conditions most favorable to their products, so these could
   be driving loads of only a few amps, or have unusual charging regimens,
   or carefully regulated temperture. The figures may not extrapolate well
   at all to the chaotic environment of a road EV.  Caveat emptor.

   Adapting this last chart to the Trojan 27TMH that might be used in some
   older Forces (admittedly dangerous since the 27TMH is significantly
   different in design from the T-125), we get:

   DOD            cycles

   80%            300            (Trojan's published BCI cycle life rating for
27TMH)
   50%            500
   20%            1,050
   10%            1,600

   Using 1 amp-hour per mile as the benchmark, here are three of the charts
   above, but now showing the actual use of such a battery in a Force.
   We'll assume that you're a careful driver and can actually get 1 mile per
   AH.

             East Penn 8G27 (57 ah at 50 amps)

   DOD            cycles      range      total miles      (cycles * range)
   100%      200            57            11,400
   50%            400            28.5            11,400
   30%            1300            17            22,100
   10%            2000            5.7            11,400

   Hmm, that far right column is suspiciously consistent, isn't it?

             Trojan 27TMH (estimated life; 70 ah at 50 amps):

   DOD            cycles      range      total miles
   80%            300            56            16,800
   50%            500            35            17,500
   20%            1050            14            14,700
   10%            1600            7            11,200

   Optima yellow top (48 ah at 50 amps)

   DOD            cycles      range      total miles
   80%            300            38.4            11,520
   50%            1,200      24            28,800
   20%            4,100      9.6            39,360
   10%            4,400      4.8            21,120

   Remember when reading these charts that they estimate life under variable
   conditions (which probably are nothing like what the batterys endure in a
   road EV).  In the real world, none of these is likely to happen as the
   charts predict.  For example, most users of Optimas in EVs will tell you
   that a life of around 500 cycles is more typical of 50% DOD use.

   So, DON'T try to use these charts to choose batteries!

   The main lesson to take away from this is that you'll get the most
   efficient use of your batteries when you try to use between 30% and 70%
   of their capacity, then recharge.  In most industrial applications, the
   aim is to size the battery at double the capacity actually needed in
   order to take advantage of the 50% rule.

   One last note.  If you drive 5 miles a day, don't conclude from these
   charts that you should charge your 27TMHs every 7 days, or your
   Sonnenscheins every 3 days.  It doesn't work that way.  Allowing a
   discharged (or partly discharged) battery to sit for several hours
   without charging will lead to sulfation, which causes early loss of
   capacity and failure.  You should charge a battery as soon as possible
   any time that you use more than 10% of its capacity, and never allow any
   battery to sit more than 24 hours at anything less than 100% charged.

   The bottom line is that maintaining batteries is just about as much art
   as science.  We can make some general rules, but there are always going
   to be lots of ifs and buts and guessing.


   David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
   1991 Solectria Force 144vac
   1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
   1979 General Engines ElectroPed 24vdc
   1974 Honda Civic EV 96vdc
   1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
   = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
   Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
   thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
   = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is what happened with my batteries.

I purchased my 144V 1992 Solectria Force from Nevada Power in 8/98.  I did
some work on it over the winter, and on 4/18/99 replaced the 45# (# = pound)
flooded Pb-acid batteries with 59# 27TMH's.  I felt that the lighter
batteries, while providing ample energy for my 15 mile drive to work, did
not deal well with the hills, and maximum amperage draws lasting for 1 to 2
minutes at a time.  The heavier batteries handled the higher amperage much
better.  My typical amp-hour use was between 15 and 20 each way, charging
twice a day, at about 7:50 a.m. and 5:40 p.m.  On 2/5/00 I replaced a
battery (under warranty - no cost), because after 276 cycles, a cell went
bad.  I believe the new battery created stress on the rest of the pack
during charging (the new one's charge went way up during charging, so the
other's had less to share), so I think it reduced the overall remaining life
of the pack, but I still got 282 more cycles before replacing the set on
3/7/01.  That is a total of 558 recharge cycles from the pack.

At the time I got them, I was told the 1-hour discharge rate capacity was 63
Ah.  So I was using between 25% and 33% of the available capacity.  Over
that period I drove 8959.5 miles, using about 1.09 ah/mile.

The replacements are 35# AGM's, with a listed 1-hour capacity of 35 Ah.  The
information I have says AGM's deal well with high discharge rates, and I
don't have to water them.  This pushes my use of available capacity to
around 50%.  They cost more, but my hope is that not having to remove the
controller, and move the A/C, in order to water the batteries once a month,
will make up for the added cost.

And since I'm sharing data, here is how the axle weights shifted through all
of this.  First is the GAWR listed on the driver's doorway, which is the
maximum design weight through each axle, and in total.  Second is the weight
as I first bought it, with the 45# batts - 4 in front, 8 in back.  Third is
the weight with the 59# batts - a little heavy, and again 4 in front, 8 in
back.  Fourth is with all twelve of the 35# AGM's in the back battery box.
Really convenient access, and visually pleasing, but the front end was
light, and I didn't like the handling.  Last is with 3 of the new batts in
front, and 9 in back.  All of the weights, except the GAWR, include 200# me
in the driver's seat.  I got new tires between the last two weighings, so I
presume that accounts for the 20# difference.  And I know that the axle
ratings don't exactly add to the total GAWR - that's how it's shown.  I
presume it's a conversion from Kg issue.

Not knowing how a formatted table would display for everyone else, I am
sending this using courier fixed spacing, so if the table looks wrong,
changing the font to courier should fix it.  Weights are in pounds.

        GAWR  45#   59#   35#   35#
Front  1245  1180  1236   940  1100
Back   1201  1120  1232  1240  1100
Total  2447  2300  2468  2180  2200

Matt Tracy

I have updated the grous settings to allow the public
who are not subscribed to view certain sections of this
group: files, database, links

Members can add to these areas for the membership's
benefit.

I suggest the group build a album of their Force EVs in
one of these areas.

Lastly, a Solectria link now has a new url:


-
Tom Hudson tomhudson@... wrote:
>I had to move the Solectria Owners website -- to
>http://portev.org/solectria?
>
>Thomas Hudson
-


=====
Primary BruceDP@... , Alternate BruceDP@...
http://geocities.com/brucedp  EV List & Renewable Energy Editor
EV List Archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/
EV List Charter http://geocities.com/evdl_web/evdlcharter.txt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Sexiestgeekalive seeks downtown San Jose EV1 charging

Since Ellen will be on the road, I have left her my tel# to
tell her of any private EV charging in Downtown San Jose you
all can provide.

I am going to check the Santa Clara Costo inductive charging
1601 Coleman Ave., Santa Clara 95050
http://ev1-club.power.net/chargers/95050_1.htm
The store manager keeps turning off the gen1 inductive and
AVCON chargers.

*Please let me know who can offer private charging
220VAC 40amp outlet for Ellen's EV1.

Bruce Parmenter BruceDP@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Ellen Spertus [mailto:spertus@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 7:14 PM
Subject: Charging near downtown San Jose

I'm preparing for the Sexiest Geek Alive pageant
  http://sexiestgeekalive.com ], to take place on Wednesday, June 20,
at the San Jose Convention Center.  I'll be spending the night at
the Fairmont.  To be safe, I'll want to recharge before driving back
to San Francisco.  Can you recommend [EV charging near downtown]
San Jose?

I drive an Silver GM EV-1. A Conductive charger outlet that will power
an
inductive charger at a private residence would be fine as all I will
need is a couple of hours of charge

[All] are of course invited to the pageant, which is at 7 PM and free.

Ellen
-



=====
BruceDP@... http://geocities.com/brucedp
EV List & Renewable Energy Editor http://geocities.com/ev_list/
hybrid & fcv newsitems http://egroups.com/group/hydrogenpower

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

When I got my Force, I just started plugging it into the NEMA 6-20
outlet in my garage (just happened to have one already).

First issue: I would like to have a meter showing how much I've juice
I've drawn from the grid for charging the car.  Does anyone know of
something?  For example, for 120V, there's
  http://www.realgoods.com/shop/shop3.cfm?dp=302&ts=1025344

Second issue: since I typically get home around 7pm, this means I'm
charging the car a little early in the day to help with the energy
load.  Yes, I could try to remember to come out at 11pm and plug it
in, but if I forgot (and I would) it would be mean not driving the
Force to work the next day.  So it would be nice to have a device that
turns on the power at a preset time, say midnight, and then turns it
off later.

There might be something that even combines both of these functions.
Please let me know what's out there.

Also, do others generally find converting to a Time of Use rate
schedule to be worthwhile?

-Earl

Earl,

Check out Herbach & Rademann (http://www.herbach.com/catalog.htm), go to the
Panel Meters section of their catalog.  Item TM93MET2386 is what you're
looking for, it's a standard watt-hour meter that I use to meter my Force.

I'm not sure about a timer, though X10 makes a 20A 220V module
(http://www.x10.com/products/x10_hd245.htm), this is controllable through
your computer.

-Tom

Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org/solectria/ho -- Our Electric Vehicles
http://portev.org/solectria/ho/pvs.htm -- Solar Power
http://portev.org/solectria -- Solectria Owners Website
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl A. Killian [mailto:earl@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 7:01 PM
> To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [force_ev] charging
>
>
> When I got my Force, I just started plugging it into the NEMA 6-20
> outlet in my garage (just happened to have one already).
>
> First issue: I would like to have a meter showing how much I've juice
> I've drawn from the grid for charging the car.  Does anyone know of
> something?  For example, for 120V, there's
>  http://www.realgoods.com/shop/shop3.cfm?dp=302&ts=1025344
>
> Second issue: since I typically get home around 7pm, this means I'm
> charging the car a little early in the day to help with the energy
> load.  Yes, I could try to remember to come out at 11pm and plug it
> in, but if I forgot (and I would) it would be mean not driving the
> Force to work the next day.  So it would be nice to have a device that
> turns on the power at a preset time, say midnight, and then turns it
> off later.
>
> There might be something that even combines both of these functions.
> Please let me know what's out there.
>
> Also, do others generally find converting to a Time of Use rate
> schedule to be worthwhile?
>
> -Earl
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On 20 Jun 2001, at 17:01, Earl A. Killian wrote:

> So it would be nice to have a device that
> turns on the power at a preset time, say midnight, and then turns it
> off later.

A good electrical supply house can sell you a motor-driven timer with
programmable on-off times.  They're not fancy or electronic, but sturdy
and reliable.  They've been around for many years.  Yes, they are
available with 240v timing motors.

I use a 120 volt version of this to control chargers.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1979 General Engines ElectroPed 24vdc
1974 Honda Civic EV 96vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The Zivan charger on Sparrows occassionally suffers from thermal runaway.  To
avoid killing the batteries many sparrow owners charge using a timer.  There are
several models made by Intermatic that should be available at your local
hardware store.

On Wed, 20 June 2001, "Earl A. Killian" wrote:

>
> When I got my Force, I just started plugging it into the NEMA 6-20
> outlet in my garage (just happened to have one already).
>
> First issue: I would like to have a meter showing how much I've juice
> I've drawn from the grid for charging the car.  Does anyone know of
> something?  For example, for 120V, there's
>  http://www.realgoods.com/shop/shop3.cfm?dp=302&ts=1025344
>
> Second issue: since I typically get home around 7pm, this means I'm
> charging the car a little early in the day to help with the energy
> load.  Yes, I could try to remember to come out at 11pm and plug it
> in, but if I forgot (and I would) it would be mean not driving the
> Force to work the next day.  So it would be nice to have a device that
> turns on the power at a preset time, say midnight, and then turns it
> off later.
>
> There might be something that even combines both of these functions.
> Please let me know what's out there.
>
> Also, do others generally find converting to a Time of Use rate
> schedule to be worthwhile?
>
> -Earl
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

On 21 Jun 2001, Noel Adams wrote:

> The Zivan charger on Sparrows occassionally suffers from thermal
> runaway.  To avoid killing the batteries many sparrow owners charge
> using a timer.

What Zivan model would that be?


Rob Landry
umarc@...

Poll: CARB is proposing a conductive EV charging standard

The CARB staff has developed recommended standards for EV charging
infrastructure. CARB proposes that beginning in model year 2006, EVs
would need to use on-board conductive charging in order to qualify for
credits towards the ZEV mandate targets.

This is a controversial proposal as the inductive manufacturers are
opposed, as well as Chrysler. There is also oppposition on
philosophical grounds:  that CARB should let the market sort this
out, rather than attempting to impose charging standards via
rule-making.

CARB is concerned that there's likely to be lots of opposition, and so
far, not much support. CARB needs more support. BAAQMD will likely
support the CARB recommendation on the grounds that it will facilitate
installation of public EV charging.

Market forces have shown not to apply as GM has used their inductive
installations not unlike a cuckcoo: pushing out any competition even
though GM does not make their EVs available to the public.

ALL EVs can use conductive charging. Inductive chargers are regularly
connected to public conductive outlets and chargers.

I want to POLL all EV drivers for their views.
*** I need every EV driver to SEND EMAIL TO  ev_list@...
     with:

-Your vote/view for conductive chargers as an EV charging standard

-What EV you drive

-What type of charging does it have

-Your name and postal address

*** ONLY EMAIL TO   ev_list@...   will be tabulated.
Any POSTs to any of the EV groups or lists will not be
counted/tablutated.  Your personal information is for verification.

=====
BruceDP@... http://geocities.com/brucedp
EV List & Renewable Energy Editor http://geocities.com/ev_list/
hybrid & fcv newsitems http://egroups.com/group/hydrogenpower

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

I think that the sparrow uses the NG3.  Don't really think it's the chargers
fault however, the Sparrow has 3 Optimas under the seat and these tend to get
hot really easily.

On Thu, 21 June 2001, "umarc@..." wrote:

>
> On 21 Jun 2001, Noel Adams wrote:
>
> > The Zivan charger on Sparrows occassionally suffers from thermal
> > runaway.  To avoid killing the batteries many sparrow owners charge
> > using a timer.
>
> What Zivan model would that be?
>
>
> Rob Landry
> umarc@...
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

My company has a 98 force that we had in storage and never powered.  It came
without a battery pack and was ordered for experimental reasons.  Now that
we pulled it out and put some lead acid batteries in it, I was surprised to
find no contactor in sight.

  The fans in the motor compartment came on as soon as the pack was
connected, even with no key in the ignition.  I suppose for some reason or
another the contactor is missing.  Can anyone tell me where it is normally
located and what the coil wires look like,  where they are routed?  It all
seems strange to me.

Thanks very much-
Nick

2 forces
1 sunrise
2 converted all-electric honda insights
us electricar geo prism
s-10 conversion

How strange!  I use 20 Optima Y/Ts in my escort. Two of them are in
sealed compartments just to the rear of the rear wheel wells and are only
large enough to accept the original Trojan T-105s that came with the car.
  12 more are placed into a sealed compartment where the fuel tank used to
be. The final 6 are up front under the hood.

Not one of them ever gets more than very slightly warm.  So it sounds as
though the Sparrow chargers need to be adjusted both as to trickle
current and possibly the "knee" voltage which defines when they change
from full to trickle charge.  I do not recommend that the trickle current
exceed 2A and preferrably more like 1.5 A or so.


On 22 Jun 2001 07:29:22 -0700 Noel Adams <anbausa@...> writes:
> I think that the sparrow uses the NG3.  Don't really think it's the
> chargers fault however, the Sparrow has 3 Optimas under the seat and
> these tend to get hot really easily.
>
> On Thu, 21 June 2001, "umarc@..." wrote:
>
> >
> > On 21 Jun 2001, Noel Adams wrote:
> >
> > > The Zivan charger on Sparrows occassionally suffers from
> thermal
> > > runaway.  To avoid killing the batteries many sparrow owners
> charge
> > > using a timer.
> >
> > What Zivan model would that be?
> >
> >
> > Rob Landry
> > umarc@...
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
> http://www.shopping.altavista.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

We have 37 responses to the poll
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/7523

If you have not sent your view yet, please do so
Read read the POST and send it to the stated email
address.



=====
BruceDP@... http://geocities.com/brucedp
EV List & Renewable Energy Editor http://geocities.com/ev_list/
hybrid & fcv newsitems http://egroups.com/group/hydrogenpower

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Tim is up in the Sacramento area and plans to attend and show his
support for EV charging. Locals, please consider attending.
[ use  http://maps.yahoo.com    1001 I Street, Sacramento, CA ]
Contact  tim_hastrup@...  and coordinate your efforts at CARB.




--- "HASTRUP,TIM (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <tim_hastrup@...> wrote:
[...]
> It would be [great to see people at the CARB meeting on the 28th]
> We have to show that someone still is in favor of EV's.
>
> Tim
-

=====
BruceDP@... http://geocities.com/brucedp
EV List & Renewable Energy Editor http://geocities.com/ev_list/
hybrid & fcv newsitems http://egroups.com/group/hydrogenpower

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

honda-insight@yahoogroups.com, toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com,
uselectricar_ev@yahoogroups.com, force_ev@egroups.com,
ev1-club@...

[POSTed to the EV and hybrid lists/groups]

I need to tabulate an answer of how many San Francisco Bay area
EV and how many San Francisco Bay area hybrid drivers would use
free San Francisco parking if made available.

*** PLEASE email to  ev_list@...  the answers to the
following questions (do not hit reply, you must send to the
above email address or it will not be counted):

-Are you an EV or gasoline-hybrid driver

-What San Francisco Bay area city do you live in, & work in

-Would you use free San Francisco parking if made available
  (please answer yes or no, and then add any additional views/
   comments you may have)


*** PLEASE email to  ev_list@...  the answers to the
following questions (do not hit reply, you must send to the
above email address or it will not be counted)





-{original message}
Date:  Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:14:44 -0700
Subject:  Electric vehicles

Supervisor Gavin Newsom is working on an ordinance that will allow
zero emissions vehicles and super ultra low emission vehicles to
park for free in San Francisco. Vehicles that have the clean air decal
distributed by the state will be able to receive these benefits.

Additionally, vehicles with a ultra high mileage sticker distributed
by the City of San Francisco will be able to park for free.

I was wondering if you have any information that would be helpful
on the amount of electric vehicles or ultra high mileage vehicles
in the Bay Area more specifically San Francisco. Helpful information
may include vehicles sales in the Bay Area or San Francisco or the
Number of members in your group that live in SF. Any information
you think would be helpful is much appreciated.

The Supervisor is looking to introduce this legislation within the
next week.
Thank you for your help,
Chris Treadway
Intern- Office of Supervisor Gavin Newsom
-

=====
BruceDP@... http://geocities.com/brucedp
EV List & Renewable Energy Editor http://geocities.com/ev_list/
hybrid & fcv newsitems http://egroups.com/group/hydrogenpower

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

[POSTed to the EV and hybrid lists/groups]

I need to tabulate an answer of how many San Francisco Bay area
EV and how many San Francisco Bay area hybrid drivers would use
free San Francisco parking if made available.

*** PLEASE email to  ev_list(AT)yahoo.com  the answers to the
following questions (do not hit reply, you must send to the
above email address or it will not be counted):

-Are you an EV or gasoline-hybrid driver

-What San Francisco Bay area city do you live in, & work in

-Would you use free San Francisco parking if made available
  (please answer yes or no, and then add any additional views/
   comments you may have)


*** PLEASE email to  ev_list(AT)yahoo.com  the answers to the
following questions (do not hit reply, you must send to the
above email address or it will not be counted)





-{original message}
Date:  Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:14:44 -0700
Subject:  Electric vehicles

Supervisor Gavin Newsom is working on an ordinance that will allow
zero emissions vehicles and super ultra low emission vehicles to
park for free in San Francisco. Vehicles that have the clean air decal
distributed by the state will be able to receive these benefits.

Additionally, vehicles with a ultra high mileage sticker distributed
by the City of San Francisco will be able to park for free.

I was wondering if you have any information that would be helpful
on the amount of electric vehicles or ultra high mileage vehicles
in the Bay Area more specifically San Francisco. Helpful information
may include vehicles sales in the Bay Area or San Francisco or the
Number of members in your group that live in SF. Any information
you think would be helpful is much appreciated.

The Supervisor is looking to introduce this legislation within the
next week.
Thank you for your help,
Chris Treadway
Intern- Office of Supervisor Gavin Newsom
-

=====
BruceDP@... http://geocities.com/brucedp
EV List & Renewable Energy Editor http://geocities.com/ev_list/
hybrid & fcv newsitems http://egroups.com/group/hydrogenpower

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

On 22 Jun 2001, at 13:51, Nicholas Pasquale wrote:

> ... no contactor in sight.
>
>  The fans in the motor compartment came on as soon as the pack was
> connected, even with no key in the ignition.  I suppose for some reason or
> another the contactor is missing.

There is a contactor inside the controller itself, if it's an AC-300,
320, or 325.  However, the fact that the fans come on with the key off is
suspicious.

On my 1991 Force the motor fan (a retrofit, very different from the later
fan) is powered directly from the "ignition" switch.  I don't know how
the motor fan is connected on later cars.

The cars with 320 and 325 controllers also used 3 fans on the controller
heatsink. These may be powered by the controller itself and should only
come on when the main power contacts on the DB25 control connector are
closed.

I would check the Solectria-supplied "ignition box" for a stuck relay.
This probably connects to the controller's DB25 connector (under an
access panel) with a cable perhaps 10mm in diameter.  In my car, the
ignition box is a black plastic minibox tie-wrapped to the steering
column under the dash, but probably later cars have it somewhere else.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1979 General Engines ElectroPed 24vdc
1974 Honda Civic EV 96vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I took delivery of a '96 Force on July 4th and am very pleased with it.
This is what the public ought to see more of in oreder appreciate what is
already available to us.

Can someone direct me to a resource for the care and feeding of these NiMH
batteries?
I know they are very expensive and don't want to screw them up.
I have read the Email by Dave Roden (June 10th) about battery life on the lead
acid units and would like to research the NiMH.

Help? anyone.

Don Buckshot
Kansas City,MO
1993 TEVan
1996 Solectria Force

816-556-6356 IBM
816-531-2206 home,
816-582-6891 PCS anytime

use the following e-mail address for Solectria technical support:

customerservice@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Buckshot [mailto:scanner@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:49 AM
To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [force_ev] NiMH battery care and feeding


I took delivery of a '96 Force on July 4th and am very pleased with it.
This is what the public ought to see more of in oreder appreciate what is
already available to us.

Can someone direct me to a resource for the care and feeding of these NiMH
batteries?
I know they are very expensive and don't want to screw them up.
I have read the Email by Dave Roden (June 10th) about battery life on the
lead
acid units and would like to research the NiMH.

Help? anyone.

Don Buckshot
Kansas City,MO
1993 TEVan
1996 Solectria Force

816-556-6356 IBM
816-531-2206 home,
816-582-6891 PCS anytime



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Don!  Man, another EV in Kansas City!  My wife and I used to live there;
We now live in Wisconsin and own a '97 lead-acid Force that's getting
upgraded to NiCD.  I can't help you on the battery care issue, but I'd like
to invite you (and any other Force owners who are lurking) to get listed on
our Solectria Owner's website (see link below).  No cost or obligation, I
just want to get as many of us listed as possible.

Out of curiosity, how did you get that car?

-Tom

Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org/solectria/ho -- Our Electric Vehicles
http://portev.org/solectria/ho/pvs.htm -- Solar Power
http://portev.org/solectria -- Solectria Owners Website
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Buckshot [mailto:scanner@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 12:49 PM
> To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [force_ev] NiMH battery care and feeding
>
>
> I took delivery of a '96 Force on July 4th and am very pleased with it.
> This is what the public ought to see more of in oreder appreciate what is
> already available to us.
>
> Can someone direct me to a resource for the care and feeding of these NiMH
> batteries?
> I know they are very expensive and don't want to screw them up.
> I have read the Email by Dave Roden (June 10th) about battery
> life on the lead
> acid units and would like to research the NiMH.
>
> Help? anyone.
>
> Don Buckshot
> Kansas City,MO
> 1993 TEVan
> 1996 Solectria Force
>
> 816-556-6356 IBM
> 816-531-2206 home,
> 816-582-6891 PCS anytime
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In force_ev@y..., "Tom Hudson" <tomhudson@e...> wrote:
<SNIP>
...We now live in Wisconsin and own a '97 lead-acid Force that's
getting upgraded to NiCD...
</SNIP>
Tom,

I'm contemplating a NiCd pack option for a new NEV . Could you single
out a few particular considerations with respect to NiCd vs PbA
(Trojans) in EVs for me?
Like charging, maintenance, monitoring, etc.

Regards,
                            __
Bil Gladstone,              \
"e-scooter commuter"     O=--O
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
world wide web  : http://BCnexus.com?email
    email        : admin@...
    voice        : 250.861.3860
    e-fax        : 208.979.0283
    US Toll Free : 877.219.6100 x708
poste d'escargot: 101-1865 Dilworth Drive
                   Suite #503
                   Kelowna, British Columbia
                   CANADA  V1Y 9T1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Legalize Electric Scooters Now!
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/zap/petition.html