--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "d0li0" <d0li0@y...> wrote:
> I noticed in glancing at the "Battery Discussions" pdf file that
> there are no PbA's on the list.   Perhaps we should consider
> the use of some off the shelf Lead Acid batteries...

Thanks for the comment.  There actually are PbAcid batteries on my
battery spreadsheet.  They are the first two entries under "Also
investigated".  I checked out golf-cart sized PbAcid batteries, but
found that:
1.  they don't come close to fitting in the allotted area
2.  they lose so much capacity at 2C discharge rates as to require
huge weights for a 15 mile EV range
3.  a properly sized pack would be at so low a voltage that a very
high current DC:DC converter would be required

The BB batteries I did put on the spreadsheet are used for electric
bicycles and scooters.  They can fit in the Prius' cargo bay, have
much better high rate discharge characteristics -- maybe due to their
small cell size -- and can be configured into usefully high voltage packs.

Still, despite their low initial cost, they seemed poor in comparison
with all the NiMH cells.  Besides, when one remembers that this is to
be a demonstration of what we want to encourage the auto companies to
offer, a PbAcid battery pack would not appear to lead forward.

On the other hand, I would love to see some lithium cell, like the
18650, become a contender.  That would require a strong sense that we
can quickly overcome safety and charge balancing concerns.  On the
other hand, using a lithium battery could both make the vehicle less
limited and point the way to production possibilities only a few years
away.

/ron

Felix, I agree fully with these comments, which were lucidly stated
and are very important to bear in mind throughout the PRIUS+ project.
  How about adding them as a preface to the Strawman functional spec?

As you suggested, I will retain ownership of the battery spreadsheet.
  I too have an Acrobat distiller and will publish a PDF version along
with each update.

I'm afraid that shared ownership of a file will not work well, so I
would also like to remain owner of the evolving functional specs
document (see below).

As we have gathered a great working group, and have kept messages
relevant so that later joiners need not be overwhelmed in catching up,
I suggest its time to focus on this functional spec for the first
demonstration project, the PRIUS+.

I would like to start the process by asking especially for comments
relevant to the strawman specs.  I will attempt to incorporate
suggestions into an evolving specification document.  Where there is
disagreement, I will include both (or all) sides until we either
resolve the issue by consensus or resort to a poll.

/ron

I noticed in glancing at the "Battery Discussions" pdf file that
there are no PbA's on the list.   Perhaps we should consider
the use of some off the shelf Lead Acid batteries...

Here is a good place to start regarding the current favorite in
BEV circles, the Exide and Orbitals Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM)'s
are a favorite, they are "Crash proof" and low (if any) maintaince.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/22562

L8r
  Ryan

PS. They may be to large for the Prius+ application, but perhaps
less of them could be used at a lower voltage than the HV systems
if a DC/DC was used to bump up the voltage into the stock system...

No problem, Ryan.

I've converted and uploaded the 6/30 versions of both documents as PDF, and
just posted the Strawman as an email file as well.

(Obviously, the Excel sheet can be viewed only in PDF or Excel.

At this point, probably, Ron is the "owner" of the Excel battery file, and
he and I are the co-owners of the Strawman Word file, so we'll collect
comments and try to update these base documents as discussions evolve.

At 01:05 PM 7/9/2004 Friday, d0li0 wrote:
>--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, Felix Kramer <fkramer@c...> wrote:
> > Murdoch's excellent observations are helpful because they make
> > clear to me that our "strawman functional spec" needs a few
> > "strategic principles" to go along with it. Here are a few
> > starting points (once we get some comments we can add these to
> > the strawman doc).
>
>Would it be possible to distribute this (and other) documents in
>a format more compatible with everyones various computer platforms?
>
>ie. I can't view .doc or .xls files in my web browser...
>(Sure I can save them and open them on another computer, but why?)
>
>At the least, could the author save these files as .html and/or .psd
>documents so that everyone can view them right in their web browsers?
>
>L8r
>  Ryan

--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
        Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
       Founder  California Cars Initiative
              http://www.calcars.org
             http://www.priusplus.org
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --

PRIUS+ Strawman Specification is also found in the Files section in Word
(track changes turned on for comments) and PDF

In an effort to define a collective vision of an effective pluggable
third-generation (2004) Prius, I'd like to throw out the following strawman
functional specification.

A motive battery must be added to create a pluggable Prius, as the Prius'
existing hybrid battery has capacity for less than 2 miles of electric-only
propulsion while operating within its existing limits.  The motive battery
may be added in parallel with or separate from the hybrid battery; each
method has advantages and disadvantages.  The specifications below are not
intended to preclude one or the other approach, or other innovative approaches.

A pluggable Prius must:
* Be engineered without requiring internal modifications to the existing
Prius battery management and hybrid control systems
* Be "proven" not to compromise the existing Prius' hybrid system, its
safety, or its components' lifetimes, by not operating existing components
outside of their previously established limits, as engineered and also
recorded by "before and after" instrumentation of e.g. a week of mixed driving
* Mechanical details such as transaxle oil pressure and cooling of all
components must also be kept within Prius' existing limits
* Have similar expected reliability and longevity to that of an unmodified
Prius, except that the added motive battery pack may have a shorter
lifetime if that lifetime is nominally at least two years and the cost per
mile can be foreseen to eventually (after high-* Not reduce existing
non-plug-in gasoline mileage (e.g. due to added weight) more than 3% (which
is barely measurable); optimally, increase existing non-plug-in gasoline
mileage by also improving the performance of the Prius' hybrid system
* Drive exactly like an ordinary Prius, except for the (almost unnoticeable
to an untrained driver) automatic use of EV-only mode whenever its limits
are not being exceeded and the motive battery has sufficient power
* Not require special driving techniques to attain significant gasoline
mileage increases during city driving from plugging the car in nightly
* Have all components hidden outside the passenger compartment of the
vehicle (most, if not all, should go in the cargo tray area under the cargo
bay, which can be fully used up by a combination of system components and
the spare tire, which must remain easily accessible)
* Be fully rechargeable in 8-12 hours by plugging into an ordinary U.S.
15A, 120VAC circuit
* Be able to run in EV-only mode - within the Prius' existing EV-only-mode
limits, e.g. approximately 35 mph and moderate acceleration - for at least
12 miles on a single overnight charge (15-20 miles is desirable)
* Automatically stop discharging the motive battery when it has reached its
optimum lowest state of charge
Desirable instrumentation includes:
* A motive battery state-of-charge indicator with at least sufficient
accuracy to indicate when charging is desirable, and when the motive
battery is either fully charged or maximally discharged
* An ammeter or other measure of current flowing out of the motive battery
and/or current flowing into or out of the hybrid battery (as this is
valuable anyway and the Prius doesn't have it built in)

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, Felix Kramer <fkramer@c...> wrote:
> Murdoch's excellent observations are helpful because they make
> clear to me that our "strawman functional spec" needs a few
> "strategic principles" to go along with it. Here are a few
> starting points (once we get some comments we can add these to
> the strawman doc).

Would it be possible to distribute this (and other) documents in
a format more compatible with everyones various computer platforms?

ie. I can't view .doc or .xls files in my web browser...
(Sure I can save them and open them on another computer, but why?)

At the least, could the author save these files as .html and/or .psd
documents so that everyone can view them right in their web browsers?

L8r
  Ryan

Murdoch's excellent observations are helpful because they make clear to me
that our "strawman functional spec" needs a few "strategic principles" to
go along with it. Here are a few starting points (once we get some comments
we can add these to the strawman doc).

PRIUS+ is a demonstration project primarily aimed at encouraging automakers
to build PHEVs. We can do this by building "proof-of-concept" prototypes
that early adopters and celebrities will be proud to own and happy to drive.

While focusing on the Prius, we want to be prepared for opportunities to
replicate our efforts with vehicles such as the Ford Escape, Lexus RX-400
and Highlander HEV.

Given that automakers evolve slowly, our secondary goal is to develop
solutions that individual Prius owners may want to consider installing
themselves or in small cooperative efforts, perhaps with some local
warranty solution. However, we don't have the resources to create a
"plug-and-play" solution -- that's the car companies' jobs.

Our goal to produce a "convincing" conversion will guide how we balance
performance and cost . PRIUS+ needs to be sufficiently high on the
performance curve and low on the affordability curve to make the case for
PHEVS to:
* automakers that they're worth building,
* consumers that they're practical and worth buying
* business and public policy analysts that they solve the fuel and
emissions problems that hybrids begin to address, without requiring any new
technology breakthroughs or infrastructure investments.

For any "cutting-edge" hardware, we need to fully address issues of
component life and safety, while still looking forward perhaps 1-3 years in
terms of expected technology developments and volume production.

How affordable and efficient does PRIUS+ have to be? In considering our
prototype, we should see if we can make the case for working assumptions
that an automaker version of a PHEV will benefit from:
* economies of scale in purchasing such that components will cost
approximately 50% of the one-off pricing we encounter, and
* efficiencies in system integration such that overall performance numbers
may be 50% better than our conversions that won't tinker with fundamental
algorithms and optimization routines.

These assumptions have led to our current expectation that we can build
PRIUS+ with a 15-20 mile range, with EV-only mode up to 35-42 mph (possibly
higher depending on what we discover) at materials costs well under $10K,
perhaps well under $5K.


--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
        Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
       Founder  California Cars Initiative
              http://www.calcars.org
             http://www.priusplus.org
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Ken@J..."  wrote:
> Let me correct some...
Thank you...

> I installed ICE running monitor.
> The ICE IS always running beyond 71km/hr.
> Please note that the display does NOT always show true story,
> for example it does not show ICE running while warming-up.

I suspected that this may be what was happening.

>> I think you mean lubrication of the PSD, the MG's don't need any
>> lubrication, that's the great thing about electric motor.
>> Very little, if any maintainance... Brushes and bearings...
>
> Please note there is only a plain metal bearing between ICE
> (Planet) and MG1(Sun). It certainly requires some lubrication.

Absolutely, the PSD, Sun, Planetary, and Carrier gears and bearing
require lubrication, My point was that the MG's in and of themselves
don't require "active lubrication".  How often do we oil all the
electric motors in all the hardware all arround us, never.

L8r
  Ryan

ps. Just keeping a "generic" perspective to PHEV technologies.
I don't think the Prius+ is the only way to create a PHEV, infact
I'm not even sure that it's the best way.  But it is one way and
I would very much like to help contribute to making it happen.
Though I'm aware that it most likely won't initially be freeway
capable It will still be able to prove a simple point...

Check this post and follow the thread up for some Exciting Li News!
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/23435

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Gremban" <rong@s...> wrote:
> Given the information from the messages below, the assumption that
> tire diameter hasn't changed, and these formulae for the 2001 vehicle:

2001: 175/65R14  584 mm diameter
2004: 185/65R15  621 mm diameter

Regards,
Ken@Japan

Hello Ryan,

Let me correct some...

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "d0li0" <d0li0@y...> wrote:
> --- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kroushl"  wrote:
> > MG1.  While that may be the case, the ICE on my Prius always starts
> > spinning at 42MPH, even going downhill where the power is not
> > needed. It may be that this is related to the lubrication issue.
>
> Or it may simply be how the software is setup to manage things.
> I have heard from people that they can do 70mpg downhill in stealth
> mode, but who know if the ICE was really stopped or not.

I installed ICE running monitor.
The ICE IS always running beyond 71km/hr.
Please note that the display does NOT always show true story,
for example it does not show ICE running while warming-up.

> > As it stands now, no one has proven that there is any lubrication
> > of the MG's when the ICE is not spinning.  Wayne is waiting for a
>
> I think you mean lubrication of the PSD, the MG's don't need any
> lubrication, that's the great thing about electric motor/generators.
> Very little, if any maintainance... Brushes and bearings...

Please note there is only a plain metal bearing between ICE
(Planet) and MG1(Sun). It certainly requires some lubrication.

Regards,
Ken@Japan

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Gremban" <rong@s...> wrote:
> --- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Pohorsky" <Pohorsky@c...>
wrote:
> > Hi Ron,
> >
> > AC Propusion has already done a proof-of-concept prototype using
> 6800 of the 18650 Li-Ion cells.  Their president Tom Gage gave a
talk
> on this at the Silicon Valley EAA meeting last October.  Here is a
> link to the presentation which shows some photos:
> >
> > http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
> >
> > They drove their Li-Ion tzero from LA to Las Vegas on a single
charge.
>
> Thanks much for the lead, Jerry -- and thanks to everyone for the
> great posts!  Though I knew about the lithium tZero, I had not run
> across this cool presentation.

I may still have a hard-to-hear lengthy (10mb+?) .mp3 file of a
presentation they gave around that time about the state-of-progress,
similar to the .pdf file information.  If some folks decide they
want to hear it, email me and I will upload it for a few days to a
website so you can download it.

One reason for the use of the Li-Ion batteries in the tzero (at the
time I made the sound recording, they were using LG Chem batteries,
but were open to others') was ACP's prioritization of technology
that was widely available and comparatively affordable.  I recall
Gage saying that prior to that, he had believed Lead Batteries fit
those criteria best.  He specifically mentioned the high prices and
perhaps other reasons they had not used Ovonics, going back a few
years.

I did not at first glance see Valence listed amongst Lithium
batteries in the spreadsheet.  This is understandable, as they are
just a small company and I'm not sure what the market availability
is for their product, but I have them on my mind because I ran
across them at EVS-20 and did an interview with them.  There were at
least five or so Li-battery makers there (such as LG Chem and maybe
Matsushita) and I don't have anything bad to say about them, but I
did like that Valence seemed to claim that safety was somehow more
inherently built into their batteries than others'.  They seemed to
be anxious to participate in projects and I noticed that Dan Riegert
of Phoenix Motor Cars has mentioned his work with them, so they are
still pushing.  Perhaps we could arrange to talk with them to get
some answers about current price and availability for a prototype
project, and then future price and availability claims should the
project bear fruit.

I mentioned to Felix in email that it is even possible we may think
about a design that incorporates a couple of different batteries...
the "entry-level" one and then the upgrade more-advanced battery
design.  But this would be hard because I think different batteries
would cause some changes in other areas?

I also mentioned that I think we should have a background knowledge
of what are the latest best batteries in the latest NEVs.  This
could help us shape some thinking in the areas of batteries that are
not as advanced but are more affordable, available, tried-and-true,
etc.

Safety: Am not entirely clear as to what our final product will be.
A kit sort of idea that someone can read the recipe and purchase the
components and install?

If the goal is widespread installation of our final recipe, whether
by purchase from us of components or just by a final publication of
the recipe, I suggest that idiot-proofing-for-safety should take
some priority.  The final products will get into accidents, and they
will be mishandled and abused in the charging process and in other
areas.  Ultimately someone may get hurt (as they do all the time
with regular cars) and when that happens it will be best if we have
erred on the side of installation of components that will help
prevent problems (in charging, say, or in helping rescue crews avoid
unexpected shock problems).  I spoke with Phil Karn, an engineer and
EV1 leasor, during my attempt to cover the GEM fire in Florida, and
he had some ideas about how to improve charging safety.  Maybe we
should invite him to the group.

Ultracaps: Three years ago, folks seemed to have difficulty writing
to Maxwell to try to get some for prototype-building.  If we ask
Maxwell some questions and they don't want to provide anything, I
suggest there are many other places we could go (Nesscap sp?, Nippon
Chemi-Con, Matsushita, etc.)  If we do get Maxwell products, they
should not be put into the passenger compartment (Cyanide fumes if
they burn... though we wouldn't be talking about enough ultracaps to
preclude consideration of them).

I mention ultracaps because an under-talked-about aspect of their
advantages is that they might help extend battery life in some
hybrid and EV applications.  If there are just enough caps to take
over the regen braking and re-acceleration tasks, then I think can
help prevent wear-and-tear on lower-end and mid-end lead-acid
batteries for example.  I'm not sure as to data for higher-end
batteries.

Granted, inclusion of caps in the project would make things much
more complicated.  Still, I wanted to mention this somewhat-less-
talked-about advantage since the long-term-costs of ownership might
be lowered, and the reputation of the vehicle improved over the long
term, if the batteries last a very long time between replacements.
We've all heard the comments of potential Prius owners who are
concerned about battery replacement cost issues (and in fact there
was some battery degredation problems in some early Prius version
(s)?)

Given the information from the messages below, the assumption that
tire diameter hasn't changed, and these formulae for the 2001 vehicle:
MG2 = (3.6 x ICE - MG1) / 2.6, and
MG2 rpm = 59.14 x vehicle speed in mph,
I believe that the first equation remains true and the second becomes:
MG2 rpm = 62.3 x vehicle speed in mph.

This yields the following:
MG1 RPM     MG2 RPM     2004 MPH     2001 MPH
   6500        2500        40           42
   8000        3077        49           52
10,000        3846        62           65

Also, if we assume 3.5 miles per kWh at 60 mph, we get a power
requirement of 17 kW, well below the 50 kW peak output of MG2, and
probably well below its unpublished continuous output rating.

These calculations lead me to believe that, though reaching highway
speeds of 70 mph electrically is beyond the 2004 Prius' limitations,
cruising at 55 mph electrically should be no problem with sufficient
battery power -- if one can get the software to allow it.

/ron

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Ken@J..." <ym1784@d...> wrote:
> The gear ratio of PSD are same between 2001 and 2004 model,
> Ring:78 teeth, Planet:23 and Sun:30.
> The final gear ratio for 2001 model is 3.905 and 4.113 on 2004.
>
> My observation of upper speed limit on 2004 model is 71km/hr(44MPH)
> on meter reading and 66km/hr(41MPH) on actual speed.
> This limit is slightly faster than 2001 model.
> I believe this limit is not only MG1 limitation but lubrication
> (the oil pump for PSD is driven by ICE), avoiding shocking
> when starting ICE and etc.
>
> Regards,
> Ken@Japan

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "d0li0" <d0li0@y...> wrote:
> --- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kroushl"  wrote:
> > *** I remember having this dialog on Prius-2G.  Someone argued that
> > the ICE did not have to startup until 70MPH dur to the 10000 rpm
>
> That may have been me. .oO( Plug it in, Plug it in! hehe )
>
> > MG1.  While that may be the case, the ICE on my Prius always starts
> > spinning at 42MPH, even going downhill where the power is not
> > needed. It may be that this is related to the lubrication issue.
>
> Or it may simply be how the software is setup to manage things.
> I have heard from people that they can do 70mpg downhill in stealth
> mode, but who know if the ICE was really stopped or not.
>
> > As it stands now, no one has proven that there is any lubrication
> > of the MG's when the ICE is not spinning.  Wayne is waiting for a
> ...
> L8r
>  Ryan

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Gremban"  wrote:
> > http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf

> Felix told me that Worley (a manufacturer of 18650's used in EVs)
> believes that the way AC Propulsion is combining the tZero's 6800
> 18650's is dangerous.  I'd like to find out what they consider a
> problem and what they recommend, but neither Worley nor LG Chem (the
> other manufacturer I know of) has returned my calls for technical
> assistance.

The cells ACP is using have individule thermo-resistors.  That is
each cell has it's own "Circuit Breaker" which should prevent
thremal runaway and fires...

I have 20 18650's installed on my 24v scooter (Mine don't have
thermo-resistors built into the buttons).  I'm also running a
set of 96 rectangular LGQxyz A&TB 1Ah cells, 12parallel on that
same scooter.  Including the stock 10Ah PbA, 18650, and LGQ's
I have roughly a 20 mile range.

The 18650's are undersized, so we'll see how long they last under
an abusefull sort of situation, I'm pushing them to over 4C at times.

The LGQ's are properly sized for the scooter, capable of delivering
30A continuous.  I'm also rapidly cycling one of these cells at the
recommended max rate of 2C (like ACP), it's up to 25 cycles now...

The 10Ah of stock lead at one time delivered 8 miles, but not a year
or two old only give me 5 or less, and they are failing fast.

In contrast the 12Ah of Lithum LGQ's have taken me 10 miles a number
of times.  They are the same dimensions (slightly smaller to leave
room for a BMS/Charger circuit) as the stock PbA's..

You can all take a look at my photos of the assymbly of the LGQ
pack and the data I have been collecting on the Sony & A&TB 18650's
the A&TBi rectangular cells, and another unknown rectangular cell.
http://www.definity-systems.net/Transportation/EV/efficiency/Li-ion/
.o(Keep in mind they make sense to me, but may be unclear to others)

L8r
  Ryan

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kroushl"  wrote:
> *** I remember having this dialog on Prius-2G.  Someone argued that
> the ICE did not have to startup until 70MPH dur to the 10000 rpm

That may have been me. .oO( Plug it in, Plug it in! hehe )

> MG1.  While that may be the case, the ICE on my Prius always starts
> spinning at 42MPH, even going downhill where the power is not
> needed. It may be that this is related to the lubrication issue.

Or it may simply be how the software is setup to manage things.
I have heard from people that they can do 70mpg downhill in stealth
mode, but who know if the ICE was really stopped or not.

> As it stands now, no one has proven that there is any lubrication
> of the MG's when the ICE is not spinning.  Wayne is waiting for a

I think you mean lubrication of the PSD, the MG's don't need any
lubrication, that's the great thing about electric motor/generators.
Very little, if any maintainance... Brushes and bearings...

> fitting so he can measure oil pressure.  We may not know until the
> end of the month because Wayne will be on vacation soon.

I am very enthusiactic about the 70+mph ev-mode abilities as
calculated by the new MG RPM limites and final drive ratio..

However, Even I know that this is not nearly the whole story...
We still need to know if the MG's can deliver enough power.
The stock batteries are probably not up to this task.
The PSD may not be lubricated without the ICE output shaft spinning.
But even with all these concernes it's obvious that the new 2004
Prius is very very close to being a freeway capable Prius+.

> I have run several tests to determine the capability of my OEM
> battery pack.  From a fully charged state, I can drive for over 3.7
> miles at 25MPH on a fairly flat road before EVb mode cancels out.
> Much better than I thought.

That's great!  I knew that 1 mile was not nearly far enough...
For kicks you should see how far you can go when driving more
aggressively, since range and effeciency is all about the driver.

L8r
  Ryan

First, I want to establish that in this group when we talk about the
Prius and its systems, we are by default always talking about the
"second generation, V2.0" Prius with THD II -- model year 2004 forward
until Toyota makes major changes again.  Please be specific when
refering to earlier versions of the car, as otherwise confusion will
reign, as it often has in the Prius_Technical_Stuff group.

I believe we need to learn about the feedback and control loops that
establish what the hybrid system is doing at any time.  Until we know
this, we will be guessing at where we can inject current from a
traction battery to cause the effects we want without bad side effects.

The hybrid battery and its ECU are a case in point.  How does the ECU
determine battery SOC?  It is believed that a loss of accessory
battery power resets the ECU to believe that SOC is around 50%, then
internal resistance measurements are used to refine the reading.  No
doubt integrating current measurements are used as well to help keep
track of SOC.  The details of this will determine issues with
paralleling batteries with the hybrid battery and/or injecting current
into the battery side of the boost converter.

A related issue is charge balancing.  How does the ECU keep the hybrid
battery cells balanced?  Does it occasionally overcharge the battery
to rebalance the cells?  If so, how does it sense that it needs to do
so?  By checking the voltage of the battery taps, as one might
presume?  If not, how IS charge balancing accomplished?  Whether we
parallel batteries or provide a separate traction battery, what will
we need to do to preserve the existing process for the hybrid battery
as well as provide accurate SOC handling and charge balancing for our
additional battery?

The CAN bus carries a lot of information between modules, no doubt
used in decision-making.  However, it is relatively slow and can
probably not be used for any control requiring a time constant of much
less than a second.  There must be faster feedback loops as well.

Take for example the high voltage bus.  Is its voltage fixed at 500V
or variable?  What controls the voltage?  How are the MG1, MG2, and
hybrid battery current into and out of this bus measured and controled?

For example, let's say MG1 must at a particular time generate 10 kW to
make the ECVT do its job.  What feedback circuit determines how much
power MG1 is dumping onto the bus, whether it is the right amount or
not, and how to switch its inverter transisters to correct any errors?
  Then what determines where this current goes?  Where are the current
sensors?

One possible control scheme would work like this:  MG1 and the hybrid
battery boost controller are each actively controlled to put a
specific current into the high voltage bus, take a specific current
out, or both.  MG2 is configured to take or give current as necessary
to maintain the bus voltage at 500V.

This technique would make control of the ECVT and of hybrid boost or
regenerative braking separable from each other, clean, and easy.
Additional current injected from a traction battery into the high
voltage bus would go to MG2 to speed up the vehicle rather than to the
hybrid battery.  This might work if a throttle control feedback loop
then readjusts ICE speed and/or hybrid battery current to compensate.

On the other hand, the actual control scheme may be completely
different.  Does anyone have ideas about how we can learn what
controls what?  Measurements of an operational system do not tend to
elicit this information, and as far as I know, Toyota is
understandably mum.

/ron

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Pohorsky" <Pohorsky@c...> wrote:
> Hi Ron,
>
> AC Propusion has already done a proof-of-concept prototype using
6800 of the 18650 Li-Ion cells.  Their president Tom Gage gave a talk
on this at the Silicon Valley EAA meeting last October.  Here is a
link to the presentation which shows some photos:
>
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
>
> They drove their Li-Ion tzero from LA to Las Vegas on a single charge.

Thanks much for the lead, Jerry -- and thanks to everyone for the
great posts!  Though I knew about the lithium tZero, I had not run
across this cool presentation.

Felix told me that Worley (a manufacturer of 18650's used in EVs)
believes that the way AC Propulsion is combining the tZero's 6800
18650's is dangerous.  I'd like to find out what they consider a
problem and what they recommend, but neither Worley nor LG Chem (the
other manufacturer I know of) has returned my calls for technical
assistance.

> Here's some info on a slightly different topic.  When people talk
about NiMH cells, I think of Ovonic or Panasonic.  Turns out that
Sanyo will be a big player in the NiMH market.
>
> The following news item was in the July 6 business section of the
San Jose Mercury News:
> Sanyo aims to spark car-battery sales
>
> Sanyo Electric, the world's largest maker of rechargeable batteries,
aims to more than double its sales from equipment used in automobiles,
including batteries for gasoline-electric hybrid cars, in its next
business year. The company is targeting sales of 100 billion yen ($921
million) in the year to March 2006, said Yukinori Kuwano, chief
executive of Osaka, Japan-based Sanyo.
>
> Sanyo also wants to expand sales of car audio and navigation systems
and of local-area-network gear for cars. Sanyo will be the sole
supplier of nickel-metal hydride batteries for Ford Motor hybrid
Escape sport-utility vehicles. Ford plans to sell about 20,000 units
of the fuel-saving cars annually. Sanyo will also provide such
batteries to Honda Motor for hybrid Accord models for North America.
>
> ``The upside is, Sanyo will have sales from this battery business,
which was only posting research-and-development expenses until now,''
said Koichi Hariya, an analyst with Tokyo-based Mizuho Securities.
There will be much competition in the electronics market for cars, as
``many electronics makers are after the automobile industry.''

Note that two of the most promising cells in my battery spreadsheet
are from Sanyo.

/ron

> Adios,
>
> Jerry
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: rgremban
>   To: priusplus@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 7:22 PM
>   Subject: [priusplus] Re: Battery Spreadsheet
>
>
>   Thanks, Dan!  I put the battery spreadsheet together, with some
>   suggestions from Felix.
>
>   I believe we have some other work to complete before making a battery
>   choice.  First is to agree on a functional spec, second on an
>   architecture.  This may require further experimentation as well as
>   engineering and discussion to arrive at.
>
>   During this process, more battery candidates may appear and/or become
>   viable, too.  For example, I just learned about the price,
>   performance, and reliability of 18650 series lithium cells currently
>   in high volume production for laptop computers, etc.  They have the
>   performance, including specific energy and high discharge rates, to
>   work as great traction batteries.  I'd like to find out whether
>   hundreds of them can be safely and effectively combined to form a
>   traction battery (small quantities have been safe and effective in
>   millions of laptops).  If so, it could enable a pluggable Prius with
>   an electric-only range of up to 40 miles or more.  That may be more
>   range than would be useful given the Prius' EV-only-mode limitations,
>   but it would allow us to find the optimum range by experimentation
>   rather than settling for a range pre-limited by battery pack
>   practicalities.
>
>   /ron gremban

I am planning to put together a digest of relevant technical posts
that I have been collecting from other groups such as
Prius_Technical_Stuff and Gridable_hybrids.  However, as I am fairly
new to these groups myself (only since May 26) and have not had time
to go on an archeological expedition, I know I will be missing many,
many very important posts from before my time.

I hope Felix will post his valuable more general PHEV digest to this
group, too.  When I post my digest, I'll list a set of technical
subjects that I hope someone can put a technical digest together
focussing on and going further back in time.

Another idea I have is to somehow consolidate relevant information
from all these posts, Toyota literature, and other sources into some
kind of living document(s) about what is known, what is conjectured,
and what we recognize we still need to learn.  My battery spreadsheet
could be considered a begining of this process, as well as my posts
full of questions.

Currently, valuable information is scattered in so many places that I
doubt any one of us has anywhere near a full picture of our current
collective knowledge.  In contrast, I believe several, if not all, of
us will need to gather a pretty good overall understanding and
consensus if we are to collaborate well to accomplish our goal.

If anyone has ideas on how to organize this knowledge base and keep it
up-to-date with our expanding knowledge, I'd like to hear them.

/ron

----- Original Message -----

From: rgremban

To: priusplus@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 7:22 PM

Subject: [priusplus] Re: Battery Spreadsheet

Thanks, Dan!  I put the battery spreadsheet together, with some
suggestions from Felix.

I believe we have some other work to complete before making a battery
choice.  First is to agree on a functional spec, second on an
architecture.  This may require further experimentation as well as
engineering and discussion to arrive at.

During this process, more battery candidates may appear and/or become
viable, too.  For example, I just learned about the price,
performance, and reliability of 18650 series lithium cells currently
in high volume production for laptop computers, etc.  They have the
performance, including specific energy and high discharge rates, to
work as great traction batteries.  I'd like to find out whether
hundreds of them can be safely and effectively combined to form a
traction battery (small quantities have been safe and effective in
millions of laptops).  If so, it could enable a pluggable Prius with
an electric-only range of up to 40 miles or more.  That may be more
range than would be useful given the Prius' EV-only-mode limitations,
but it would allow us to find the optimum range by experimentation
rather than settling for a range pre-limited by battery pack
practicalities.

/ron gremban

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "rgremban" <rong@s...> wrote:

Hi Ron, see comments below.

> Also, we know from Toyota's literature that the THS-II MG1 works at
up
> to 10,000 rpm.  Combining all these pieces of data indicates that
the
> vehicle can go up to 65 mph with the ICE stopped before MG1 would
> overspeed!  Presumably, MG1 could start the ICE even at this speed,
> because to do so it would act as a generator and slow down rather
than
> speed up.

*** I remember having this dialog on Prius-2G.  Someone argued that
the ICE did not have to startup until 70MPH dur to the 10000 rpm
MG1.  While that may be the case, the ICE on my Prius always starts
spinning at 42MPH, even going downhill where the power is not needed.
It may be that this is related to the lubrication issue.  As it
stands now, no one has proven that there is any lubrication of the
MG's when the ICE is not spinning.  Wayne is waiting for a fitting so
he can measure oil pressure.  We may not know until the end of the
month because Wayne will be on vacation soon.

> On another front, according to various reports in
> Prius_technical_stuff, EV-only mode acceleration is limited to far
> below the 38 kW the battery pack is capable of or the 50 kW MG2 is
> capable of.
>
> All this information leads me to a tentative conclusion that the
> Prius' EV-only mode limitations are due to efficiency optimizations
> rather than limits necessitated by component limitations.  This
makes
> sense, as without a traction battery, EV-only mode has little actual
> value other than to move the car a very short distance without
having
> to warm up the ICE.


*** FYI,
I have run several tests to determine the capability of my OEM
battery pack.  From a fully charged state, I can drive for over 3.7
miles at 25MPH on a fairly flat road before EVb mode cancels out.
Much better than I thought.

Dan

The gear ratio of PSD are same between 2001 and 2004 model,
Ring:78 teeth, Planet:23 and Sun:30.
The final gear ratio for 2001 model is 3.905 and 4.113 on 2004.

My observation of upper speed limit on 2004 model is 71km/hr(44MPH)
on meter reading and 66km/hr(41MPH) on actual speed.
This limit is slightly faster than 2001 model.
I believe this limit is not only MG1 limitation but lubrication
(the oil pump for PSD is driven by ICE), avoiding shocking
when starting ICE and etc.

Regards,
Ken@Japan

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "rgremban" <rong@s...> wrote:
> An article I have by Robert Snyder covers the gear ratios and speeds
> of the vehicle, the ICE, MG1, and MG2, for the "Version 2" Prius.  Is
> this the 2001 or 2004 vehicle?  If 2001, how can we find out if any
> gear ratios have changed for the current version?
>
> Assuming for the moment that gear ratios and tire diameters have NOT
> changed, the following is true:  MG2 = (3.6 x ICE - MG1) / 2.6, and
> MG2 rpm = 59.14 x vehicle speed in mph.  These are probably not
> unreasonable assumptions, as gear ratio changes would entail much more
> retooling than that required by the other known changes for THS-II.
>
> Also, we know from Toyota's literature that the THS-II MG1 works at up
> to 10,000 rpm.  Combining all these pieces of data indicates that the
> vehicle can go up to 65 mph with the ICE stopped before MG1 would
> overspeed!  Presumably, MG1 could start the ICE even at this speed,
> because to do so it would act as a generator and slow down rather than
> speed up.
>
> On another front, according to various reports in
> Prius_technical_stuff, EV-only mode acceleration is limited to far
> below the 38 kW the battery pack is capable of or the 50 kW MG2 is
> capable of.
>
> All this information leads me to a tentative conclusion that the
> Prius' EV-only mode limitations are due to efficiency optimizations
> rather than limits necessitated by component limitations.  This makes
> sense, as without a traction battery, EV-only mode has little actual
> value other than to move the car a very short distance without having
> to warm up the ICE.
>
> If this is true, it may not be difficult to make a PRIUS+ that is
> capable of much more as an electric vehicle than we have even
> imagined!  An EV-only mode capable of e.g. 50 or 55 mph and all but
> top-end acceleration would cover almost all non-highway driving
> conditions including the high-speed thoroughfares so common in large
> urban areas.
>
> Then let's say we managed to safely and effectively use e.g. a battery
> pack of 18650 lithium cells, capable of 40 miles range.  We would have
> a vehicle that could be, in normal use, 50-99% electric vs. maybe
> 15-33% electric for a vehicle based on our current strawman functional
> specifications.
>
> I am not advocating trying to reach this strong a pluggable PRIUS+
> now, but find it exciting to discover that it may actually be possible
> using the existing 2004 Prius THS-II drive system!  We can keep our
> eyes open while working on the immediately practical PRIUS+
>
> /ron gremban

Hello from Japan,

Have you ever visit...?
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/index.html

There is a description about the semiconductor, IGBT...
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/power.html

Regards,
Ken@Japan

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "rgremban" <rong@s...> wrote:
> In the files section of the Prius_technical_stuff group, at "THS-II
> info/BoostConverter.gif" is a simplified diagram of the THS-II boost
> converter (from the hybrid battery to the 500V HV bus).  Does anyone
> know anything about the types and ratings of the components shown
> (and, in the case of the hybrid battery's current sensor, not shown)?
>  One design for building an effective PRIUS+ (pluggable Prius) is to
> design a similar device for between the hybrid battery and an added
> traction battery.  Knowing as much as possible about Toyota's
> converter may speed the evaluation process of this option.  Maybe
> someone has had the boost converter's case open or otherwise knows
> something.  Any tidbits may help.  In particular,
>
> Current sensor:  the hybrid battery's current sensor has three
> terminals, and the service manual says that nominal DC resistance
> between the terminals is 3.5 to 7 kohms, depending somewhat on
> polarity of the meter.  This is obviously not a current shunt.  Is it
> inductive (normally good only for AC current), a Hall effect probe, or
> what?  How is it read?
>
> Inductor:  Is this an iron core, ferrite core, or air core inductor?
> What is its inductance and (unless air core) saturation current?  What
> gauge of (copper?) wire is it wound with?  Its inductance can be
> calculated, if necessary, from simultaneous voltage and current
> waveforms of the converter in action.
>
> Transistors:  The transistors are drawn as a hybrid of NPN bipolar
> transistors and MOSFET transistors.  I haven't kept up with recent
> developments in high power devices, and this is a new one to me.  Does
> anyone know what they are, or what one could use to economically
> switch 50-200A at up to 300-350V?
>
> Capacitor:  I assume that the capacitor is an ordinary high voltage
> electrolytic capacitor, but may be wrong.  What is the rating?
>
> Note that although I am working on CalCar's PRIUS+ project, my own
> Prius is still months away from delivery, so I am limited in
> first-hand experience.
>
> I also posted this message in Prius_technical_stuff to reach a wider
> audience.
>
> Thanks,
> /ron gremban

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "rgremban" <rong@s...> wrote:
>
> Current sensor:  the hybrid battery's current sensor has three
> terminals, and the service manual says that nominal DC resistance
> between the terminals is 3.5 to 7 kohms, depending somewhat on
> polarity of the meter.  This is obviously not a current shunt.  Is
it
> inductive (normally good only for AC current), a Hall effect
probe, or
> what?  How is it read?
>

I have some data that Wayne sent me long, long ago
(Prius_Technical_Stuff post 8139) on the '04 current sensor.  IIRC,
it is a Hall effect sensor.  The output is linear (compared to the
previous model) from 0.5 V to 4.5 V.

0.5 V is -200 Amps (Charging)
2.5 V is 0 Amps
4.5 V is 200 Amps (Discharging)

For example, a reading of 1.9 V means -60 Amps (the most efficient
braking charging current per Wayne)

According to Wayne, to get the reading, you tap the yellow wire
between the current sensor and the HV Battery ECU. See p. 105 of the
wiring diagram. GIB is the ground wire (same as vehicle ground on
the '04) VIB is the positive feed, and IB is the output.

Note: I personally have not yet tried this. Although I have put
together a circuit to indicate current while driving, I have not yet
installed it.

Also, don't forget that the ECU monitors voltages for every two
modules with feeds from the busbars, and that there are also
temperature sensors on the battery pack.

Some of these data are also available on the CAN bus, if we choose
to tap into that with a "PriusPlus" ECU.

- Ken

Thanks, Dan!  I put the battery spreadsheet together, with some
suggestions from Felix.

I believe we have some other work to complete before making a battery
choice.  First is to agree on a functional spec, second on an
architecture.  This may require further experimentation as well as
engineering and discussion to arrive at.

During this process, more battery candidates may appear and/or become
viable, too.  For example, I just learned about the price,
performance, and reliability of 18650 series lithium cells currently
in high volume production for laptop computers, etc.  They have the
performance, including specific energy and high discharge rates, to
work as great traction batteries.  I'd like to find out whether
hundreds of them can be safely and effectively combined to form a
traction battery (small quantities have been safe and effective in
millions of laptops).  If so, it could enable a pluggable Prius with
an electric-only range of up to 40 miles or more.  That may be more
range than would be useful given the Prius' EV-only-mode limitations,
but it would allow us to find the optimum range by experimentation
rather than settling for a range pre-limited by battery pack
practicalities.

/ron gremban

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kroushl" <danielbkroushl@e...>
wrote:
> I was looking at the battery spreadsheet in the files section.  It
> looks like alot of work has gone into it.  Great job to whomever is
> responsible!  I guess the next question is...  What choice of
> battery/configuration will be the first prototype for Prius Plus?
>
> In my humble opinion, it would be best to try a different battery
> type/configuration that what Wayne, Tom and I are experiementing
> with.  At least then we will have something to compare.  I vote for
> the Sanyo D-cells.
>
> I expect that later this summer, with the help of Tom and Wayne, I
> will have an additional 18Ah that I will be able to play with.  I am
> currently getting some baseline results for EV mode with my OEM
> pack.  I will then be able to test the effect of adding additional
> capacity in 3Ah increments.  The results should be very interesting
> to analyze given that in addition to adding capacity, we will also
> have the effect of lowering resistance.
>
> Regards,
> Dan

An article I have by Robert Snyder covers the gear ratios and speeds
of the vehicle, the ICE, MG1, and MG2, for the "Version 2" Prius.  Is
this the 2001 or 2004 vehicle?  If 2001, how can we find out if any
gear ratios have changed for the current version?

Assuming for the moment that gear ratios and tire diameters have NOT
changed, the following is true:  MG2 = (3.6 x ICE - MG1) / 2.6, and
MG2 rpm = 59.14 x vehicle speed in mph.  These are probably not
unreasonable assumptions, as gear ratio changes would entail much more
retooling than that required by the other known changes for THS-II.

Also, we know from Toyota's literature that the THS-II MG1 works at up
to 10,000 rpm.  Combining all these pieces of data indicates that the
vehicle can go up to 65 mph with the ICE stopped before MG1 would
overspeed!  Presumably, MG1 could start the ICE even at this speed,
because to do so it would act as a generator and slow down rather than
speed up.

On another front, according to various reports in
Prius_technical_stuff, EV-only mode acceleration is limited to far
below the 38 kW the battery pack is capable of or the 50 kW MG2 is
capable of.

All this information leads me to a tentative conclusion that the
Prius' EV-only mode limitations are due to efficiency optimizations
rather than limits necessitated by component limitations.  This makes
sense, as without a traction battery, EV-only mode has little actual
value other than to move the car a very short distance without having
to warm up the ICE.

If this is true, it may not be difficult to make a PRIUS+ that is
capable of much more as an electric vehicle than we have even
imagined!  An EV-only mode capable of e.g. 50 or 55 mph and all but
top-end acceleration would cover almost all non-highway driving
conditions including the high-speed thoroughfares so common in large
urban areas.

Then let's say we managed to safely and effectively use e.g. a battery
pack of 18650 lithium cells, capable of 40 miles range.  We would have
a vehicle that could be, in normal use, 50-99% electric vs. maybe
15-33% electric for a vehicle based on our current strawman functional
specifications.

I am not advocating trying to reach this strong a pluggable PRIUS+
now, but find it exciting to discover that it may actually be possible
using the existing 2004 Prius THS-II drive system!  We can keep our
eyes open while working on the immediately practical PRIUS+

/ron gremban

In the files section of the Prius_technical_stuff group, at "THS-II
info/BoostConverter.gif" is a simplified diagram of the THS-II boost
converter (from the hybrid battery to the 500V HV bus).  Does anyone
know anything about the types and ratings of the components shown
(and, in the case of the hybrid battery's current sensor, not shown)?
  One design for building an effective PRIUS+ (pluggable Prius) is to
design a similar device for between the hybrid battery and an added
traction battery.  Knowing as much as possible about Toyota's
converter may speed the evaluation process of this option.  Maybe
someone has had the boost converter's case open or otherwise knows
something.  Any tidbits may help.  In particular,

Current sensor:  the hybrid battery's current sensor has three
terminals, and the service manual says that nominal DC resistance
between the terminals is 3.5 to 7 kohms, depending somewhat on
polarity of the meter.  This is obviously not a current shunt.  Is it
inductive (normally good only for AC current), a Hall effect probe, or
what?  How is it read?

Inductor:  Is this an iron core, ferrite core, or air core inductor?
What is its inductance and (unless air core) saturation current?  What
gauge of (copper?) wire is it wound with?  Its inductance can be
calculated, if necessary, from simultaneous voltage and current
waveforms of the converter in action.

Transistors:  The transistors are drawn as a hybrid of NPN bipolar
transistors and MOSFET transistors.  I haven't kept up with recent
developments in high power devices, and this is a new one to me.  Does
anyone know what they are, or what one could use to economically
switch 50-200A at up to 300-350V?

Capacitor:  I assume that the capacitor is an ordinary high voltage
electrolytic capacitor, but may be wrong.  What is the rating?

Note that although I am working on CalCar's PRIUS+ project, my own
Prius is still months away from delivery, so I am limited in
first-hand experience.

I also posted this message in Prius_technical_stuff to reach a wider
audience.

Thanks,
/ron gremban

I was looking at the battery spreadsheet in the files section.  It
looks like alot of work has gone into it.  Great job to whomever is
responsible!  I guess the next question is...  What choice of
battery/configuration will be the first prototype for Prius Plus?

In my humble opinion, it would be best to try a different battery
type/configuration that what Wayne, Tom and I are experiementing
with.  At least then we will have something to compare.  I vote for
the Sanyo D-cells.

I expect that later this summer, with the help of Tom and Wayne, I
will have an additional 18Ah that I will be able to play with.  I am
currently getting some baseline results for EV mode with my OEM
pack.  I will then be able to test the effect of adding additional
capacity in 3Ah increments.  The results should be very interesting
to analyze given that in addition to adding capacity, we will also
have the effect of lowering resistance.

Regards,
Dan

Tom (vfaq) and I went back and forth on this a few times off-list; here's
the result (let's see how it works):

Felix Kramer wrote:

>I agree on PDF or HTML for final...(before then your Office 97 should open
>track changes word files made by any Office version).
>
>At 05:17 PM 7/2/2004 Friday, Tom Stangl, VFAQman wrote:
>
>>I actually have Office2000 on my home system, and StarOffice on my work
>>system, but they're both bloated programs that take forever to load once
>>you pull the file down locally.  That's why I keep Office97 on one
>>system, for quicker access.  But I often find myself converting files as
>>soon as I can.
>>
>>Yes, annotating pretty much requires Office, but with Mozilla or other
>>browsers with built-in editors, it is often easy to just assign
>>colorcodes to each person, and allow them to add comments in an HTML doc
>>where needed.
>>
>>For in-progress docs, Office format probably makes sense.  But once any
>>doc is finalized, I highly recommend PDF or HTML for the final version.
>>
>>Felix Kramer wrote:
>>
>>>Tom...
>>>
>>>Thanks for your signing up and for your suggestions...I'm inclined to
>>>listen to someone who probably has more experience on online groups
>>>(though I have lots of experience sending Word docs around for multiple
>>>comments). If you don't have office, obviously you can't use the
>>>comments feature even with a downloaded viewer.
>>>
>>>If we're working on a document where someone wants to annotate it, PDF
>>>would add show the markup but not enable anyone to work with it, and
>>>unless I'm mistaken, html might show strikethroughs but probably
>>>wouldn't show comments or other markup changes.
>>>
>>>So it seems to me the most effective way is either: Word + track changes
>>>or text files with lots of brackets for deletions and additions, and
>>>stick with Excel for matrices, etc.
>>>
>>>You could reply to me only or quote me and reply to the group
>>>
>>>Felix
>>>
>>>At 12:42 PM 7/2/2004 Friday, talonts@... wrote:
>>>
>>>> From the welcome message:
>>>>"We're going to try to exchange substantive comments by uploading
>>>>annotated Word and Excel documents."
>>>>
>>>>I would ask that you please NOT use proprietary formats.  Use
>>>>relatively universal formats such as HTML or PDF.
>>>>
>>>>Both Word and Excel can export docs at HTML, and you can download free
>>>>printer drivers that will turn anything you print into a PDF file.
>>>>
>>>>If it's an Excel sheet that everybody may need in order to update
>>>>info, fine, but otherwise, please stick to formats that any decent
>>>>browser can handle without plugins.
>>>>
>>>>I don't say this because I don't have Office, I do.  I just think that
>>>>too many people output Office docs that are unnecessarily large (html,
>>>>even with all the markup, is often far smaller), and hard for others
>>>>to n yc.  Everyone shouldn't have to download the readers from MS just
>>>>to see a relatively simple doc that could easily be done in HTML.
>>>
>>>--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
>>>       Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
>>>      Founder  California Cars Initiative
>>>            http://www.calcars.org
>>>     cell 650.520.5555  voice 650.599.9992
>>>--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
>>
>>
>>--
>>Tom Stangl, VFAQman
>>DSM Visual FAQ home
>>http://www.vfaq.com/
>>Prius Visual FAQ Home
>>http://www.vfaq.net/

--
Tom Stangl, VFAQman
DSM Visual FAQ home
http://www.vfaq.com/
Prius Visual FAQ Home
http://www.vfaq.net/

Hello,

  The amperage used/generated is available on the CAN, message ID 0x3B,
databyte #0 and #1 as signed 12 bit value, expressed in 0.1A units.

Attila

From the welcome message:
"We're going to try to exchange substantive comments by uploading
annotated Word and Excel documents."

I would ask that you please NOT use proprietary formats.  Use
relatively universal formats such as HTML or PDF.

Both Word and Excel can export docs at HTML, and you can download free
printer drivers that will turn anything you print into a PDF file.

If it's an Excel sheet that everybody may need in order to update
info, fine, but otherwise, please stick to formats that any decent
browser can handle without plugins.

I don't say this because I don't have Office, I do.  I just think that
too many people output Office docs that are unnecessarily large (html,
even with all the markup, is often far smaller), and hard for others
to load.  Everyone shouldn't have to download the readers from MS just
to see a relatively simple doc that could easily be done in HTML.

This is the invitational email we sent out to the first members of the
group, which is also the first message of the archive.

We invite you to help shape the '04 Prius as a plug-in hybrid

The PRIUS+ Project is finally ready to move forward -- and we hope you can
help! We're inspired by the energy shown among '04 Prius members, the high
levels of interest in the EV button, and the external factors that make it
urgent to get people starting to take seriously plug-in or grid-connected
hybrids (PHEVs). Getting a few "proof-of-concept" vehicles on the roads and
in the press will pave the way for car companies to build PHEVs.

We invite you to join a new, select Yahoo Group solely dedicated to
technical development for this project. We aim for a highly focused,
thought-provoking,  relatively low-traffic and spam-free group, where we
will plan and implement the conversion of several '04 Priuses to become
PHEVs with a 15-20-mile electric only range at up to 35mph.

We picked you as a technically qualified person or as a generalist whose
opinions we value. (Don't worry, it's OK if you only watch until you want
to jump in.) We start with two documents: a Strawman spec for the vehicle
plus a survey of the universe of possible batteries we may use. Both these
documents can also be found in the "files" section of the group.

Why a new group? As we move ahead on the PRIUS+ project, it's become clear
that we need a place to engage in a focused exchanges without distractions,
in a forum where it's easy to track the threads and evolution of
discussions and decisions. The work-style that inspires us is that adopted
by the Yahoo Prius Miniscanner Group, developing instrumentation to better
understand the Prius.

The level of discussion that inspires us is that shown by the creative
members of the long-established Yahoo Prius_Technical_Stuff group. Other
efforts, like those of Wayne Brown and Dan Kroushl, were announced on that
group; our project is happening in parallel to theirs and others' (the info
they've shared with us about the batteries they're using is included in our
batteries document).

And we're modeling this effort on "open source" software development
projects -- that is:
* we draw on the expertise and solutions of a broad group of experts;
* our plans, discussions and decisions are open to the entire group;
* no individual makes claims to any resulting intellectual property.

Our group's messages will be publicly viewable, but each member's first
submission will be approved by a moderator. We're going to try to exchange
substantive comments by uploading annotated Word and Excel documents. As
with all Yahoo Groups, you can choose to receive the messages by individual
messages or daily digest, or simply view them online.

Moderators are Felix Kramer (strong on strategy + promotion), founder of
the California Cars Initiative and the PRIUS+ campaign (more about Felix at
http://www.nlightning.com/resume.html), and Ron Gremban (strong on tech)
who describes himself as:
"involved in electric vehicles off and on for over 35 years.  In the summer
of 1968 I was one of a team of three builders and drivers of the Caltech
entry in the "Great Electric Car Race" between Caltech and MIT, and as such
was one of the first three people to cross the continent on purely electric
power. I am now an electrical and software engineer currently involved in
the sales of solar energy systems in Northern California."

If you want to keep informed about our progress, we encourage you to join
the California Cars Initiative non-technical fans and supporters group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars

Thanks in advance for your help and support,
Felix Kramer



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        Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
       Founder  California Cars Initiative
              http://www.calcars.org
             http://www.priusplus.org
        PO Box 61222  Palo Alto, CA 94306
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