Hi, everyone!  CalCars is now working on our forth conversion of a Prius
into a PHEV.  This one is owned by Sven Thesen, long-time CalCars
volunteer, working on clean vehicles at Pacific Gas & Electric.  Its
first public appearance will be in the AAA booth at the San Francisco
Auto Show, starting November 19.  This conversion process, an advanced
version of what we did at the Maker Faire last spring
(http://www.calcars.org/makerfaire.html), will also double as a testbed
for completion of the documentation of our "Do It Yourself (with an
Engineer or Electrician) Prius Conversion Project" (see
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusPlus).  Most work will occur in my
garage in Corte Madera (Marin County), off highway 101 10 miles north of
the Golden Gate Bridge.

The conversion process will begin at my home this coming Saturday
afternoon, November 4.  Tom Driscoll (who has designed the physical
layout) and I cannot accomplish these ambitious goals alone, and will
need help as listed below.  Though we will definitely need others as
well, this will be a great opportunity for anyone intending to do their
own conversion to learn about the process first-hand (any future how-to
workshops are likely to cost something).  This message is going to
appropriate mailing lists, to those who have expressed interest in doing
a conversion, and to people who have previously helped or offered to
help on CalCars projects (some of whom I may miss due to poor contact
info organization).

Until we have a project manager, please email offerings to me, Ron
Gremban (rgremban@...), or, if you need more immediacy, call me
at 415 924-9409 Pacific time.  Please paste these questions into your
response and answer them for myself and the new project manager:
   1.  Provide home and/or work location and contact info (phone numbers,
when to use each, & email)
   2.  What task(s) (below) are you volunteering to work on, where, and when?
   3.  What is your time availability?  (provide as many details as possible)
   4.  What are your relevant skills?  (please provide even if you
previously did so)
   5.  What relevant tools can you bring?  (I have all necessary
electronics and most mechanical tools, but not enough for many people to
work simultaneously)
   6.  Do you need, or can you provide, overnight hospitality in or near
Marin County?  (I don't have a guest room)

* Overnight hospitality in or near Marin County for out-of-town volunteers
** project management (both on- and off-site -- needed very badly:  Tom
was project manager for the Maker Faire conversion, but has recently had
to step down due to increased employment commitments, and I am too busy
with technical details)
    ^ scheduling of people, tasks, and procurement
    ^ facilitating problem areas (missing help, parts arrivals, etc.)
* fabrication of mechanical parts (after sufficient instruction, can be
done remotely, optimally by Nov 5)
    ^ aluminum battery box frame
    ^ various ABS and plexiglass plastic parts
    ^ making sketches or mechanical drawings of these parts to match
Tom's verbal descriptions
* completion of the logic circuit board (from an existing etched PCB;
best done in Corte Madera Nov 4-5)
    ^ selecting, stuffing, and soldering the correct components into the
board
    ^ making the necessary board modifications, then verifying that the
documentation is accurate
    ^ testing the board
* measuring, documenting, and building a new set of low-power cables
(best done in Corte Madera Nov 4-5)
* measuring, documenting, and building a set of high-power cables (half
can be done remotely, some by Nov 5)
* installation of parts and cables into the electronics box (best done
in Corte Madera Nov 4-5)
* Two CAN-View installations (must be done in Corte Madera after the
parts arrive, hopefully Sunday, Nov 12)
* Battery and charger installation (must be done in Corte Madera once
the parts arrive, hopefully Sunday, Nov 12)
* Photography and video clips of key operations (must be done in Corte
Madera as work progresses)
* Formalization of our parts lists, including verifying accuracy, part
numbers, suppliers, etc.
* Tech writing, to turn our notes, drawings, parts lists, and
explanations into a coherent set of plans (can be off-site starting Nov
4-5, but presence during the conversion work would be very helpful)

Thanks very much in advance,

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.eaa-phev.org
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi, Steve!  As this site is public, I am taking the liberty to forward
this message and my response to mailto:eaa-phev@....  Please
visit http://www.eaa-phev.org.

Although your web page didn't show any conversion specifics, all power
to you!  For what they are worth, here are my suggestions, which
actually apply to anyone intending to use one or more Prius battery
packs as a PHEV pack.

1)  If you plan to use BatteryECU spoofing (instead of replacement), I
recommend adding cells to a gen-2 or removing cells from a gen-1 Prius
pack to create a pack with around 200 cells in series.  This should give
you approximately the same voltage differential as the 20 12V PbA
modules I am currently using.  You might need to add or subtract a few
cells if, after experimentation, you find the PHEV pack's end
state-of-charge (SOC) is too high or low, respectively.

2)  To help keep track of SOC while experimenting, I highly recommend an
Amp-hour meter such as the Trimetric TM-2020 ($140 at
http://store.solar-electric.com/tm2020.html) with a 100A, 100mV shunt
(http://store.solar-electric.com/mka-100-100.html).

3)  One 6.5Ah Prius pack, used as a PHEV battery, should provide about 5
miles of EV range.  It will take 2 to provide the same 10 mile EV range
as my PbA pack; four should give you 20 miles.  However, these cells
were not designed for deep discharge or (especially) to be repeatedly
charged fully, so their lifetime may be shorter than desireable.

4)  If more than one Prius pack is put in parallel to form a PHEV pack,
you should do the following:
     a)  Fuse each pack separately, with a 60A fuse for each of two packs
or a 30A fuse for each of 4 packs.
     b)  Charge each pack separately, with a charger specifically
designed for an NiMH pack.  NiMH cells and packs cannot be charged to
end-of-charge in parallel, as only on string of a parallel set will ever
get fully charged.  Also, chargers with algorithms designed for any
other chemistry will not behave properly around end-of-charge, and will
destroy the battery.

5)  Tom Driscoll (mechanical) and I (electronics) are working on, and
will soon be publishing documentation for an updated version of the
spoofing-based PbA PRIUS+ conversion that has now been successfully
running on my car for over a month (more info in an upcoming message at
eaa-phev).  It will be designed for flexibility, capable of working with
all sorts of battery packs with their own battery management
electronics, and with various types of high-power electronics, e.g.
contactors vs. a DC:DC converter such as Manzanita Micro's PFC-40
charger.  Once again, I believe that a wait for this documentation will
be well worth it.

/ron gremban

imwoody36 wrote:
>
> Hello All, I invite you to visit this website to see my efforts on
> another PHEV Prius. My name is Steve Woodruff and I have been silent
> too long. I welcome constructive critisism and your correspondence.
> http://www.autobeyours.com/PHEV.htm <http://www.autobeyours.com/PHEV.htm>
>
>
>

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.eaa-phev.org
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Howdy,

I would like to let Steve know about our Plug-In Hybrid Special Interest Group,
in case he is not already aware of it.  The link is:

www.eaa-phev.org

There is a lot of good information there for the do-it-yourselfer who is
interested in plug-in hybrids.  I see on his website that Steve is already using
the CAN-View.  The CAN-View designer, Norm Dick has made a special version of
his firmware to support the plug-in Prius functions.  We have some info on this
on our website.

Steve - it would be great to see some "after" photos to go along with your
"before" photos.  It would also be great if you could post your answers to
Murdoch's questions on the PHEV-SIG mail-list.  That list currently has 193
members while I believe this Yahoo group is limited to 50 members.  Instructions
on how to join the PHEV-SIG mail-list are on the website.

If you browse the older messages you will see that I currently have a "contest"
going with a $500 grant to the person who has the best plug in hybrid design. 
The deadline is Sept. 1st although I may end up extending that since there has
been little response thus far.  I haven't published any "rules" for the contest,
but the winner will be someone who allows the SIG to publish detailed plans that
would enable the tech-savvy do-it-yourselfer to make their own plug-in hybrid.

So far, there is the approach developed by Ron Gremban of CalCars and another
different approach developed by Rich Rudman using his PFC battery charger as a
DC to DC converter feeding the Prius pack from a second (in one case, lead acid)
pack.  I was hoping to use this "Z prize" to stimulate others to come up with a
PHEV plan in the same way that the X prize stimulated the development of a new
space craft.

Adios,

Jerry Pohorsky
EAA-PHEV SIG chairman

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: murdoch
   To: priusplus@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 12:18 PM
   Subject: Re: [priusplus] Yet another PHEV and a greeting from woody36



   Hi:

   Your page says that:

   >This page documents my efforts to add a second stock Prius High voltage
battery pack to the car.
   >

   Yet, I thought that a result of Ron's research was that we (for
   now) concluded that the best way to go was to not use the
   already-in-the-car Prius battery. I don't know if we ditched it
   or left it in place but added other batteries separately.

   Thus, I am curious to read what you can tell us, from your
   experience, as to what you have discovered in building your
   vehicle, and how it has gone, and perhaps help me or others in
   our understanding of the issue of the stock Prius batteries and
   what they are good for and not good-for.

   The history of these discussions is that we are often asked to
   take them to other groups, so I'll wait to see if-when that
   happens.

   Also, have this and other discussion groups been helpful in
   providing you with good technical information, and where do you
   think improvements can be made in widely disseminating all the
   tricks?

   Also, is it true, what I have heard even about the EnergyCS
   vehicle, that there is something about the way a stock Prius
   comes that makes it difficult (or impossible) to prevent the
   gasoline burning engine from turning on at higher speeds?

   On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:47:49 -0000, you wrote:

   >Hello All, I invite you to visit this website to see my efforts on
   >another PHEV Prius. My name is Steve Woodruff and I have been silent
   >too long. I welcome constructive critisism and your correspondence.
   >http://www.autobeyours.com/PHEV.htm
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi:

Your page says that:

>This page documents my efforts to add a second stock Prius High voltage battery
pack to the car.
>

Yet, I thought that a result of Ron's research was that we (for
now) concluded that the best way to go was to not use the
already-in-the-car Prius battery.  I don't know if we ditched it
or left it in place but added other batteries separately.

Thus, I am curious to read what you can tell us, from your
experience, as to what you have discovered in building your
vehicle, and how it has gone, and perhaps help me or others in
our understanding of the issue of the stock Prius batteries and
what they are good for and not good-for.

The history of these discussions is that we are often asked to
take them to other groups, so I'll wait to see if-when that
happens.

Also, have this and other discussion groups been helpful in
providing you with good technical information, and where do you
think improvements can be made in widely disseminating all the
tricks?

Also, is it true, what I have heard even about the EnergyCS
vehicle, that there is something about the way a stock Prius
comes that makes it difficult (or impossible) to prevent the
gasoline burning engine from turning on at higher speeds?




On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:47:49 -0000, you wrote:

>Hello All,  I invite you to visit this website to see my efforts on
>another PHEV Prius.  My name is Steve Woodruff and I have been silent
>too long. I welcome constructive critisism and your correspondence.
>http://www.autobeyours.com/PHEV.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hello All,  I invite you to visit this website to see my efforts on
another PHEV Prius.  My name is Steve Woodruff and I have been silent
too long. I welcome constructive critisism and your correspondence.
http://www.autobeyours.com/PHEV.htm

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Garlow.Charlie@...
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:50:39 -0400
Subject: Fw: This Week on NOW: "Who Killed the Electric Car?"


> NOW
> Friday, June 9, 2006 on PBS
> Check local listings at www.pbs.org/now/sched.html
>
> ==================================================================
>
>
> "Who Killed the Electric Car"
>
> Did car companies sabotage one of their most fuel
> efficient and environmentally-friendly products
> because it stood in the way of big profits? A new
> documentary by filmmaker Chris Paine charts the
> promising life and untimely death of the electric car,
> and lays blame at the door of some powerful suspects.
>
> NOW sits down with Paine to look under the hood
> of America's automotive and oil industries and
> uncover who really pulled the plug on electric cars,
> and why.
>
>
> ==================================================================
>
> NOW Online
>
> The NOW Web site follows up this week's show with
> exclusive features and up-to-date information, including:
>
> Timeline: Life & Death of the Electric Car
> www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html
>
> In Depth: The Rise of the Hybrid
> www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/hybrid-car.html
>
> Action Step: Tips on Conserving Fuel
> www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/conserving-fuel.html
>
> Q&A: Daniel Sperling on Cars of the Future
> www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/conserving-fuel.html
>
> All this, plus an incredible archive of in-depth infor-
> mation and deep insight on the issues most important
> to you, at www.pbs.org/now
>
> ==================================================================
>
> NOW interviews actress Alexandra Paul on her love
> affair with electric cars "When the Exxon Valdez
> spilled in 1989, I was angry. I even wrote on the back
> of my car, 'Boycott Exxon'. And then I said to myself,
> 'Hey Alexandra, you're part of the problem; you're
> buying gas'," she told NOW.
>
> Read the full web-exclusive interview at
> www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/paul-interview.html
>
>
> ==================================================================
>
> NOW Awards and Honors
>
>
> * NOW Senior Correspondent Maria Hinojosa was honored with the 2006
North
> Star News Prize, which recognizes people of color who have made a
> significant contribution to journalism, media, and communications.
>
>
> * The NOW episode "The Broken Promise" won first place in the Business
and
> Consumer Reporting category of the 2006 National Headliner Awards, one
of
> the oldest and largest annual contests recognizing journalistic merit
in
> the communications industry.
>
>
> * The NOW episode "Judicial Review" won a 2006 Gracie Allen Award in
the
> Outstanding Feature, Hard News category. The Gracies honor realistic
> portrayals of women in media.
>
>
> "The Broken Promise"
> http://www.pbs.org/now/thisweek/index_040105.html
>
>
> "Judicial Review"
> http://www.pbs.org/now/thisweek/index_061705.html
>
>
> ==================================================================
>
>
> NOW Web Poll
>
>
> What factor would most motivate you to buy an electric car? Vote NOW
at
> www.pbs.org/now.
>
>
> ==================================================================
>
>
> NOW on Demand
>
>
> Get NOW how, where and when you want it. Sign up for podcasts and RSS
> feeds, view transcripts, and watch NOW broadcast reports online at
> www.pbs.org/now.
>
>
> ===================================================================
>
>
> Hosted by David Brancaccio, NOW has been called "...must-see,
> make-your-blood-boil television..." by Newsday and "...public
television
> at its best" by the Philadelphia Inquirer.  Each week, the series
sheds
> light on a wide range of issues confronting the nation and explores
> American democracy and culture through investigative reporting and
> interviews with major authors, leading thinkers, and artists.
>
> You have received this e-mail because you asked to be informed of
> information on upcoming programs.  To subscribe or unsubscribe from
the
> weekly NOW newsletter, visit www.pbs.org/now/newsletter.html.
>
>
> NOW - 450 West 33rd Street New York, NY 10001 212-560-8186
> .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NOW-Update mailing list
> http://webmail.thirteen.org/mailman/listinfo/now-update
>

In thinking about Mike Sassnet's suggestion to dump the excess regen
current into a resistive heating element, I came up with what I believe
is a solution to the "Charge Current Limit" problem.  I have
successfully tested it yesterday and today.  Although my testbed is a
hack and needs some further refinement, it works well and with it the
vehicle has exceptional driveability.  It also has some further major
advantages.

What I've done is combine the idea of using a higher voltage for
spoofing the Battery ECU, controlling the spoofing via perceived SOC
feedback, and intermittantly paralleling the new PHEV battery with the
existing OEM battery.  The vehicle is run on the OEM battery and the
Battery ECU.  No battery tap emulation is required (meaning that the HV
Board is no longer necessary).  When perceived SOC (read from the CAN
bus) is below 69%, the PHEV battery pack is placed in parallel with the
OEM pack (currently by a contactor, but in the near future by an IGBT).
Once the perceived SOC reaches 71%, the PHEV battery is removed from the
circuit.  I am planning on, but have not yet added, a diode to send
regenerative braking current to the PHEV battery as well as the OEM
battery once the voltage exceeds the current voltage of the PHEV pack,
even when the batteries are otherwise disconnected from each other.

This paralleling charges the OEM battery by holding its voltage higher
than normal, which also raises the ECU's perceived SOC.  When the
perceived SOC reaches 71% and the batteries are once again disconnected,
the ECU's perceived SOC will, as it is designed to do, settle on the
true SOC of the OEM battery.  Note that for the OEM battery, this
process mimics regenerative braking, nor does it happen when the OEM
battery's SOC is too high.

As the PHEV battery is discharged through this process, less and less
voltage is added when the batteries are paralleled.  Eventually, the
PHEV battery is unable to keep the perceived SOC above 69% and remains
in parallel from then on.  Its real SOC will equalize at a point where
its open circuit voltage matches that of the OEM battery at the
approximately 60% SOC that the ECU tries to maintain -- and once again,
the perceived SOC will match the OEM battery's real SOC.  I therefore
believe that, though lots of voltage shifts and SOC spoofing is going
on, this process will treat the OEM battery well by keeping it within
its normal operating range -- a major requirement of any hybrid battery
scheme.

It will also treat the PHEV battery well by requiring much smaller
current peaks from it and by settling on a minimum SOC predetermined by
the difference in voltages of the two battery packs.  And a really low
PHEV battery internal resistance (IR) is not required for proper
operation; increased IR will merely result in reduced EV-only range.  I
believe that with this scheme, the lifetime of the PHEV battery should
be at least doubled from that of CalCars' first PbA pack.  It's also
likely that battery heating for the PbA pack will no longer be strictly
necessary, though it could still be helpful in preserving PHEV range at
low ambient temperatures.

Yet another potential advantage of this hybrid-battery configuration is
that the overall battery system's IR will at worst match the Prius' OEM
IR, and when the batteries are paralleled -- as will be the case for all
driving beyond the PHEV range -- the combined IR will be around half of
that.  This should improve city hybrid-mode mileage, probably fully
making up for the added weight of the PHEV battery pack.  It also has so
far eliminated all DTCs due to excessive voltage swings as well as exits
from EV-only mode due to undervoltage (<180V).

The voltage of the PHEV pack necessary for proper spoofing probably
depends on the PHEV battery IR as well as its chemistry.  My test
results are as follows:
     20 EVP20-12 batteries, 240V nominal:   5 miles EV range until kicked
out of EV-only by perceived SOC hitting 45%
     21 EVP20-12 batteries, 252V nominal:  10 miles and 9.7Ah until 45%,
7-8 miles and 7-8Ah until 60% SOC (nominal end-point)
     22 EVP20-12 batteries, 264V nominal:  may be perfect, but ran out of
time to try until later this week

Note that freeway-speed testing is yet to come, too.  There may still be
some further quirks to work out.

I will next continue this testing process and look at the changes
required to both Ryan's Maker Faire and the Electro Energy conversions
to use this configuration in its current unrefined form.  There are
specific control, battery voltage, and charger voltage issues for each
conversion.  Then I will refine it and come up with a more permanent
solution, using, for example, solid-state instead of wear-prone
contactor switching.

In the meantime I have worked on neither Maker Faire nor Electro Energy
schematics and parts lists, as I knew that they would of necessity be
changing, possibly significantly, to accomodate a necessary solution
(now found) to the CCL conundrum.

/ron

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.eaa-phev.org
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ron,

I cannot fulfill the below requirements, but I can suggest an
AGM battery that should give you about 20 miles of 40 MPH range,
cost less than $900 and weigh about 500 lbs.
Cycle life should be between 300 and 500 cycles, giving between
6000 and 10,000 electric miles.

The UB12500 is a 12V 50Ah (20h) battery that can deliver 50A
for 27 min (150A for 7 min) see
http://www.universalpowergroup.com/specs/D5698.pdf
If this can fit in the Prius, it may be a good datapoint to
test this slightly larger battery type.

Regards,
Cor.

--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, Ron Gremban <rgremban@...> wrote:
> 2.  In the meantime, I'd like to request that anyone making a
> battery or battery company suggestion check first with the
> company to verify that they have a product that meets the
> following minimum parameters -- or find someone to send your
> suggestion to who will do this initial checkout:
>
> Development stage:  in at least limited volume production, with
> specifications available
> Specific energy:  >40 Wh/kg
> Power handling:  >10C (6 minute full discharge rate)
> Calendar life:  >10 years
> Cycle life:  >4000 cycles (to 80% depth-of-discharge desired,
>  to 50% minimum, may require special control electronics)
> Cell size:  28-50 Amp-hr (6-10 kWh pack at 216V without massive
> paralleling of cells, and weighing <300 lb)
> Cost #1:  <$600/kWh in quantities for hundreds of PHEVs

Here's an innovative idea.  If we used a contactor instead of an IGBT,
it could even be inexpensive:

Mike Sasnett wrote:

> Ron,
>
> What if we just divert current above the CCL away from the battery and
> into a big air-cooled resistor. This is what diesel-electric
> locomotives do to dissipate the kinetic energy during braking.
>
> Should be a fun little electronics project.
>
> Mike

Thanks for your quick response and idea. I think it is a great idea, but
it would still leave the following problems:

1. Without building a replacement battery management system (BMS), we
don't have an easy way of determining real SOC, so we would not
necessarily know how to adjust perceived SOC relative to real SOC.

We are currently using the spoofed ECU to determine the end-of-charge
point (CAN-View, by the way, is currently incapable of the accurate
integration necessary to do the job of a BMS). We are spoofing the ECU
by increasing the battery voltage by a set amount. We adjust this fixed
additional voltage so that (during trial runs referencing an amp-hour
meter), with continuous spoofing, perceived SOC drops to around 60% --
the point where the hybrid system's average battery throughput drops to
zero -- just when 70-80% of the PHEV battery's charge has been used up.

2. No matter what real SOC is, a major problem is that adjusting
perceived SOC anywhere near 80% automatically causes CCL to decrease
well below 50%, prohibiting EV operations and causing poor drivability.


acranjel wrote:

> From the notes I have read from the website. I thought of this.
>
> Your state of charge or soc loop value is static between certain
> values of the real soc. But what if the value which implements the
> loops were to be dynamic as a function of the real state of charge
> wouldn’t this keep the soc artificially high while still allowing the
> ccl to rise in value when the soc drops? The reason I am asking is
> perhaps by varying the state of charge loop value in proportion the
> real state of charge your perceived state of charge would vary in such
> a way to more efficiently use the Pruis charging mechanism’s ,but only
> as much as the battery pack could take advantage of this. You would
> still have a vehicle that operates like intended but with more
> electric usage when the battery was fully charged and more regen. when
> the real state of charge was low. Ex. Real State of charge would be
> 100% and the loop value for soc would be 80% and when the real state
> of charge is 30% then loop soc would be 60%. Perhaps something along
> these lines would work whether linear or exponential. Maybe one would
> be better than the other.
>
> Let me know if there are problems with this idea or if my thinking is
> flawed.
>
> Alfonzo Ranjel acranjel@... <mailto:acranjel@...>
>
> Alamo City Electric Auto Association
>

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.eaa-phev.org
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have a few clarifications to my previous post to both the priusplus
and eaa-phev groups (this post is going to both):

1.  I posted to the priusplus group (priusplus@yahoogroups.com) for this
discussion, as it has many members and viewers with significant
technical skills, who don't view the eaa-phev group, where most
conversion discussion is currently appearing -- and don't want to
subscribe to a group with the eaa-phev's higher activity level.
Membership to this priusplus group has been (and remains) closed, due to
lack of CalCars resources to sort through new membership applications --
but anyone can view its archive of messages at
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/messages.

2.  I have also copied my request to the eaa-phev group
(eaa-phev@...), which has a whole new group of active
enthusiasts.  Anyone from here wishing to post to the discussion can
email me personally at rgremban@..., and I will post anything
that fits.

3.  This public domain project is designed to support the many, many
requests we have gotten from experimenters, schools, etc, who want very
much to convert a Prius by applying their own time and ingenuity -- and
accept an inexpensive, limited battery pack -- rather than wait and
spend $10-12k for an EnergyCS/EDrive production-quality conversion with
a top-end lithium-ion battery.  We wish to support EnergyCS/EDrive's
efforts.  We are thrilled to finally have our own EnergyCS conversion,
and hope everyone who can, will buy one.  We also believe that by
helping empower experimenters all over the world to learn about PHEVs
through their own work and experience doing their own conversions,
public knowledge and demand will both be enhanced.

I fully expect and hope that others at eaa-phev will clean up, enhance,
document, and expand upon what CalCars, with invaluable help from many,
many people, has started -- and apply the concepts to other conversions
and creative ideas we haven't even thought of.  Though we don't have the
resources to support everyone's efforts, we will do what we can until,
as we expect, our conversion efforts become outclassed, surpassed, and
eclipsed by those of other PHEV enthusiasts -- and even more by one or
more automakers.

Mainly in order to cut oil dependency and greenhouse gas emissions, and
increase usage of renewable energy for transportation, CalCars remains
dedicated to getting flex-fuel PHEV drivetrains to become the dominant
form of propulsion for new mass-produced ground vehicles worldwide.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.eaa-phev.org
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Background:
In CalCars' first PRIUS+ conversion, a CAN bus controller by EnergyCS
replaced Toyota's Battery ECU by emulating its CAN bus messages to the
rest of the hybrid system.  This was required because the Battery ECU,
in reading integrated Amp-hours out of the hybrid battery and knowing
the battery's small (6.5Ah) capacity and desired state-of-charge (SOC)
range of 40-80%, would perceive that the PHEV battery was fully
discharged when in fact it had a lot of capacity left.  The EnergyCS box
worked quite well, but was proprietary, with no opportunity for us or
others to convert further vehicles.  In contrast, CalCars would like to
see conversion technology become easy and widely available so that many,
many people will come in contact with PHEVs as rapidly as possible.

Therefore, following up on a tip from Dan Kroushl that higher battery
voltages can cause the Battery ECU to skew its perceived SOC, I
discovered that the ECU's perceived SOC can be controlled by varying the
voltage presented to the ECU as if it were the battery's voltage.  I
have named this technique "spoofing", and the details of how to do it
have been put into the public domain under "CalCars Method" at
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Prius_PHEV and at
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusPlus.

Current status and problem:
In a recent development, three PRIUS+ conversions, still in debug, are
now using automated Battery ECU spoofing.  All three are using feedback
of perceived SOC read from the CAN bus by CAN-View (a device available
at http://www.hybridinterfaces.ca), though another CAN bus reader could
do the job.  A problem has arisen where EV-only mode is not always
available.  I traced the problem to the value of another CAN bus
parameter emitted by the Battery ECU, "Charge Current Limit (CCL)".
This parameter tells the hybrid system the maximum charge (regenerative
braking) current that the hybrid battery is currently able to accept,
and is the main way that the Battery ECU has of limiting excessive
current into a mostly-charged battery.  Atilla Vass' reverse-engineered
Prius CAN message spreadsheet (at
http://www.vassfamily.net/ToyotaPrius/CAN/PriusCodes.xls) lists this
parameter as at ID 3CD, byte #0 (though it and "Discharge Current Limit,
at byte #1, may be transposed).

What I've been able to determine so far is this:  CCL is far more
volatile than perceived SOC.  Its resting value is 100-125A.  Elevated
battery voltages, as when the battery is getting overcharged during
regen braking (usually 270V, but as low as 245V), cause the value to
decrease rapidly (in seconds) to as little as 0; with low enough battery
voltages (e.g. <220V), CCL will then increase again within 10-30
seconds.  Additionally, a perceived SOC of 80% or higher in itself
causes the hybrid system to dramatically limit charge current.  This is
all as would be expected, and makes sense.

Problem specifics:
The problem is that when CCL is reduced below 50A, the Prius pops out
of, and will not enter, EV-only mode.  Then, at progressively lower CCL
values, the engine runs and begins to race.  Avoiding these EV
limitations and further drivability issues depends on keeping CCL above
50A.  If CCL is kept above 50A while perceived SOC is increased to 80%
or slightly higher, regenerative braking current into a fully charged
PHEV battery can be limited without such problems.  But high perceived
SOC also has a role in decreasing CCL, to the point where it is nearly
impossible to keep CCL above 50A at a perceived SOC of 80%.

If, on the other hand, perceived SOC is kept around 60% or below, CCL
can be kept above 50A during most regen braking -- but at the expense of
allowing high pulses of current into the PHEV battery even when fully
charged, and using normal (instead of reduced) amounts of gasoline
during higher speed (non-EV) driving.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get around this conundrum short of
replacing Toyota's Battery ECU, which issues the perceived SOC, CCL, and
related values?  We will do this if we have to, but would rather not if
we can get around it, for a bunch of reasons.  I have thought of
intercepting the messages from the Battery ECU that include the CCL and
modifying that value before sending the messages on to the hybrid
system, but this seems even more complex than replacing the ECU.

Thanks,

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.eaa-phev.org
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sebastopol, CA (March 1, 2006)- Following President Bush's recent
endorsement of advanced hybrids, and coinciding with Earth Day
weekend, The California Cars Initiative (CalCars.org) will publicly
convert a Toyota Prius hybrid into a "plug-in" hybrid during the
inaugural Make magazine Maker Faire, April 22-23.

Over two days, CalCars engineers, along with a cadre of volunteers,
will build and install a battery pack and make hardware and software
adjustments to the stock Toyota Prius.  The finished "PRIUS+" will
drive back to Seattle, Washington after the Faire with a 10-mile
low-speed all-electric range in addition to its regular hybrid extended range.

Evolving Event details:
http://www.calcars.org/makerfaire.html

Tecnical discussions and preparations:
http://www.eaa-phev.org/maillist/eaa-phev.html?show=
(not at the CalCars Plug-In Hybrid Conversion Group at Yahoo)
Information is organized in wiki-format and style

General comments and suggestions:
http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power/prius-makeover-at-maker-faire


--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
        Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
       Founder  California Cars Initiative
              http://www.calcars.org
          http://www.calcars.org/news-index.html
      http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power
            http://www.eaa-phev.org
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --

We would request that continued discussion about plug-in hybrid
policies migrate to other venues, such as:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evworld/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gridable-hybrids/

and comments about Bush and energy strategies to consider posting at:
http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power/pres-bush-endorses-phevs-amazing-breakthro\
ugh
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/02/president_bush_.html

and the technical discussions to the groups listed on the group's home page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-2G -- 2004 Prius
http://www.priuschat.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius_Technical_Stuff

As most of you know, this group's primary purpose was to help bring
CalCars' PRIUS+ into being. The group has been closed to new members
for many months--because all past postings are open for public view,
and we couldn't spare the time to review requests for approval from
people who didn't bother reading about the group.

Most of the discussion on followup projects has migrated to the
EAA-PHEV discussion group, whose simpler new URL will be
<http://www.eaa-phev.org>. Meanwhile, we'd appreciate members
respecting the wishes of those who are still subscribed to limit it
to relevant topics.

I've removed posts #553-558
Thanks, Felix

--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
        Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
       Founder  California Cars Initiative
              http://www.calcars.org
          http://www.calcars.org/news-index.html
      http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power
              http://www.eaa-phev.org
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the priusplus
group.

   File        : /BatteryInfo/calcars-phev-batteries17feb06-rdg.pdf
   Uploaded by : rgremban <rgremban@...>
   Description : New battery spreadsheet!  Simpler, up-to-date

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/files/BatteryInfo/calcars-phev-batteries\
17feb06-rdg.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

rgremban <rgremban@...>

After I had read the article I wondered how susceptible these would be
to physical shock or G forces as these nanotubes are extremely long
and thin. Any thoughts?


--- In priusplus@yahoogroups.com, Ron Gremban <rgremban@...> wrote:
>
> The poster talks about
> specific power of >100 kW/kg, specific energy of >60 Wh/kg, and
cycle
> life of >300k cycles, all with standard production techniques!  At
the
> right price, these could eventually replace PHEV batteries, with
nearly
> 100% cycle efficiency and longevity far beyond that of most vehicles.

I have received several references to research on nanotube
ultracapacitors at MIT.  The latest was a link to the following article,
which then linked to the MIT poster (next link).  The poster talks about
specific power of >100 kW/kg, specific energy of >60 Wh/kg, and cycle
life of >300k cycles, all with standard production techniques!  At the
right price, these could eventually replace PHEV batteries, with nearly
100% cycle efficiency and longevity far beyond that of most vehicles.

Article:  http://www.gizmag.com/go/5192/

MIT poster:  http://lees.mit.edu/lees/posters/RU13_signorelli.pdf

I believe no devices have actually been built yet, only an electrode has
been built (and tested?).  The definitive paper about the work "was
presented at the 15th International Seminar on Double Layer Capacitors
and Hybrid Energy Storage Devices in Deerfield Beach, Fla., in December
2005."  Does anyone have access to this paper (the proceedings are
available for purchase for $250 at
http://www.supercapseminar.com/Secure/Proceedings%20Order%20Data.htm)?

Also, if anyone has a copy of the following proceedings from the 2005
Advanced Automotive Battery Conference that they would be willing to
loan me, I would like to peruse a few articles in each (available at
https://secure.voloservices.com/%7eautobat/order.html):

2005 AABC Poster Presentations ($150)
2005 LLIBTA (Large Lithium Ion Battery Technology and Application
Symposium) ($225)

Thanks,
/ron

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Washington, DC, 01/25/06 --

    A brief announcement on this morning's NBC Channel
4 local Washington, DC newscast indicates that a Ford
Escape Hybrid capable of running E85 is being offici-
ally announced today at the Washington DC Auto Show.
Apparently, the Autos are holding their own symposium
on "Energy Challenges for the Auto Sector" today at the
Washington Convention Center.  That event is being used
as a lobbying platform for the automobile industry to
promote their agenda on energy efficiency as well as
Detroit's current economic crisis.

   A spokesperson from that event, Mike Jackson, Chair-
man and CEO of AutoNation, the largest car dealer in
the US, appeared a short while ago on CNBC (NBC's
financial news cable channel) and admitted, grudgingly,
that hybrids are catching on, but argued the same tired
industry viewpoint that hybrids don't make any economic
sense and that only Greenies are buying them, although
he phrased it a bit more delicately:

    "Hybrids are being purchased by people with a high
sense of social responsibility.  At the moment there is a
big premium for hybrids, and what they are looking for,
of course, is the latest technology, fuel efficiency and
super clean air."

   "For hybrids, though, to go mass market, there's going
to have to be a dramatic reduction in the premium, or a
significant increase in the price of fuel or both . . . or
hybrids are going to top out around 500-600,000 units."
But that, he reminded, among a 17 million auto sales,
would still be "only a tiny piece of the market."

   Asked by CNBC Reporter Liz Claman,  "How long
before we are all driving hybrids? . . .  Let's project 15
years out.  Will just about everybody be driving some
sort of energy efficient car?"

    "Oh I think everyone will be driving some sort of energy
efficient car," said Chairman Jackson,  "but I do not think
that everyone will be driving a hybrid."

   "I think there are other technologies out there that'll
sell in much bigger volumes than hybrids."

   "What?" asked  Claman.

    "Your gonna see cylinder shutoff, about a 10% im-
provement in fuel efficiency) . . . new transmissions
going up to 8 speed, about 5-10% improvement, and
the big winner that's coming over the horizon I believe,
is diesel, which for a relatively modest engine premium,
you're gonna get a 30 percent improvement in fuel
efficiency."

    "Hybrids will be part of the mix but will not be the
dominant powerplant," the chairman emphasized.

   Asked it the federal tax credit would be a factor in
hybrid sales growth, he downplayed the effort as "a
seed credit to get everyone in the game, after which
it will have to be self sustaining."  Among the various
manufacturers, he said, "Toyota will probably use its
credits up first."

   Acknowledging Toyota as the lead innovator on hybrid
technology "at the moment," Chairman Jackson  "I think
the one to watch is DaimlerChrysler.  I think with the
new super clean diesel fuels coming in the future, they
will use their expertise to reintroduce diesels in a big
way in the US and I predict that within five years diesels
will be significantly outselling hybrids."


   -- reported and transcribed by
       Dave Goldstein
       President, EVA/DC and
       Program Development Associates
       Gaithersburg, MD

----

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Was:  Re: Two-week average: 87 mpg + re. battery suggestions

I recommend that anyone interested in doing PHEV conversions, either
individually or in groups or organizations (like colleges), join and
interact with the Electric Automobile Association's EAA-PHEV special
interest group at http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV .

/ron

Richard Stanford wrote:

> Halp! Us East Coast Prius owner/drivers are hungry to try out them
> thangs. I
> volunteer. I drive 35 miles to/from work each day. Driving Atlanta to
> Plant
> City, FL today. Could give those thangs a good test, right?
>
>
>
> Richard Stanford

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>1.  Is there someone who would like to step forward (as a volunteer) to
>become a CalCars' first stage battery/battery manufacturer evaluator?
>If so, you can work with me to refine and document PHEVs' current and
>likely future battery needs, and then become a point person to check out
>new battery companies and their battery technologies as potential
>suppliers for PHEVs.  Likely candidates will then get more of CalCars'
>attention.

This seems like a terrific idea, to find a person or persons whose time and
abilities allow them to serve in this capacity.

It will help all of us, I think, as we can then send our ideas and suggestions
without fear that we are imposing overly much on the time of the two top people.
I think we will be able to really improve our ongoing battery
information-gathering and maybe implement further updates of the battery
spreadsheet (available in the group file area) that was more a focus last year.

Halp! Us East Coast Prius owner/drivers are hungry to try out them thangs. I
volunteer. I drive 35 miles to/from work each day. Driving Atlanta to Plant
City, FL today. Could give those thangs a good test, right?



Richard Stanford



   _____

From: priusplus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:priusplus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ron Gremban
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 1:29 AM
To: priusplus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [priusplus] Two-week average: 87 mpg + re. battery suggestions



PRIUS+ mileage:  A couple of weeks ago, after logging every trip in my
PRIUS+ for a year, I stopped doing so and accumulated my average mileage
while doing my normal driving around Marin County.  The result so far,
after two weeks:  87 mpg.  Also, without the time consuming logging, I
find plugging and unplugging the car to be no problem at all, taking
only seconds at each end of a trip.

Battery suggestions:  We at CalCars get many suggestions of batteries to
look at (the latest is at http://fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html).  While we
greatly appreciate the suggestions, we have very little chance to follow
up on most of them.  While it would be great to check out all the
possibilities, I am currently CalCars' only full-time technologist, and
am juggling many simultaneous projects.  I would therefore like to
request two things:

1.  Is there someone who would like to step forward (as a volunteer) to
become a CalCars' first stage battery/battery manufacturer evaluator?
If so, you can work with me to refine and document PHEVs' current and
likely future battery needs, and then become a point person to check out
new battery companies and their battery technologies as potential
suppliers for PHEVs.  Likely candidates will then get more of CalCars'
attention.

2.  In the meantime, I'd like to request that anyone making a battery or
battery company suggestion check first with the company to verify that
they have a product that meets the following minimum parameters -- or
find someone to send your suggestion to who will do this initial checkout:

Development stage:  in at least limited volume production, with
specifications available
Specific energy:  >40 Wh/kg
Power handling:  >10C (6 minute full discharge rate)
Calendar life:  >10 years
Cycle life:  >4000 cycles (to 80% depth-of-discharge desired, to 50%
minimum, may require special control electronics)
Cell size:  28-50 Amp-hr (6-10 kWh pack at 216V without massive
paralleling of cells, and weighing <300 lb)
Cost #1:  <$600/kWh in quantities for hundreds of PHEVs
Cost #2:  willing to work with CalCars on a no- or low-cost basis, to
build one or more prototype PHEVs

Until getting the above battery expert volunteer, expect us to be unable
to follow up on any battery suggestions that have not already been
evaluated against the above criteria.

Thanks,
/ron

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization:
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




SPONSORED LINKS


2004
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=2004+prius&w1=2004+prius&w2=Alternative
+fuels&c=2&s=39&.sig=mohBv-03-sKEkaIzpq3MTw>  prius

Alternative
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alternative+fuels&w1=2004+prius&w2=Alte
rnative+fuels&c=2&s=39&.sig=z8qzhV0gJuqBX1ktqlG06Q>  fuels



   _____

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   _____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

PRIUS+ mileage:  A couple of weeks ago, after logging every trip in my
PRIUS+ for a year, I stopped doing so and accumulated my average mileage
while doing my normal driving around Marin County.  The result so far,
after two weeks:  87 mpg.  Also, without the time consuming logging, I
find plugging and unplugging the car to be no problem at all, taking
only seconds at each end of a trip.

Battery suggestions:  We at CalCars get many suggestions of batteries to
look at (the latest is at http://fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html).  While we
greatly appreciate the suggestions, we have very little chance to follow
up on most of them.  While it would be great to check out all the
possibilities, I am currently CalCars' only full-time technologist, and
am juggling many simultaneous projects.  I would therefore like to
request two things:

1.  Is there someone who would like to step forward (as a volunteer) to
become a CalCars' first stage battery/battery manufacturer evaluator?
If so, you can work with me to refine and document PHEVs' current and
likely future battery needs, and then become a point person to check out
new battery companies and their battery technologies as potential
suppliers for PHEVs.  Likely candidates will then get more of CalCars'
attention.

2.  In the meantime, I'd like to request that anyone making a battery or
battery company suggestion check first with the company to verify that
they have a product that meets the following minimum parameters -- or
find someone to send your suggestion to who will do this initial checkout:

Development stage:  in at least limited volume production, with
specifications available
Specific energy:  >40 Wh/kg
Power handling:  >10C (6 minute full discharge rate)
Calendar life:  >10 years
Cycle life:  >4000 cycles (to 80% depth-of-discharge desired, to 50%
minimum, may require special control electronics)
Cell size:  28-50 Amp-hr (6-10 kWh pack at 216V without massive
paralleling of cells, and weighing <300 lb)
Cost #1:  <$600/kWh in quantities for hundreds of PHEVs
Cost #2:  willing to work with CalCars on a no- or low-cost basis, to
build one or more prototype PHEVs

Until getting the above battery expert volunteer, expect us to be unable
to follow up on any battery suggestions that have not already been
evaluated against the above criteria.

Thanks,
/ron

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The last two messages should really have been private messages in
response to my post.  Below is a gentle reminder; please be careful:

Unfortunately, replies to messages coming via Yahoo groups like this,
created via your browser's Reply button, automatically go to the whole
group (I almost did that myself moments ago).  To send a private reply,
you need to copy and paste the From: address into your response.

Thanks,
/ron

--- Ron Gremban <rgremban@...> wrote:

> Thanks for your pointer to this page.  As there
> isn't anything private,
> I am taking the liberty to post my response to the
> PriusPlus group.
>
> I fully believe that supercaps will eventually
> replace batteries in
> conventional hybrids.  They have all the right
> characteristics and need
> just a 2-3x improvement in specific energy and cost.
>
> However, PHEVs that are designed to handle the full
> range of ordinary
> driving conditions including up and down mountain
> passes, must be able
> to deliver and accept near-acceleration-level power
> continuously, and
> are therefore less likely to benefit significantly
> from supercaps.  I
> got inspired to go through a preliminary PHEV design
> process to see how
> it might really come out:
>
> Note: in all of the figuring below, I assume an
> electric
> motor/controller/transmission efficiency of 75%, so
> that it conveniently
> requires 1 kW from a battery to produce 1 hp (746W)
> of mechanical output
> at the wheels.  To convert an ICE's output to
> equivalent electrical
> input then requires multiplying its kW rating by
> around 1.25 (assuming
> 6% drivetrain losses) or its hp rating by 0.94 --
> rating the Prius' 76
> hp/57 kW engine's equivalent electric input at 71
> kW.
>
> Let's imagine two Prius-class PHEVs (at 3300 lb GVW,
> to match the weight
> at which the Prius' acceleration and hill climbing
> abiltity were
> measured) -- one keeping the existing ICE, the other
> designed from the
> ground up.  To keep up with a Prius as well as with
> non-sports ICE cars,
> it needs to have a top speed of around 100 mph
> (combined ICE & EV), be
> able to cruise all day at 80 mph with a headwind
> (ICE only), accelerate
> 0-60 mph in 10 seconds (combined ICE & EV), and
> climb a 6% maximum
> freeway grade mountain pass at 70 mph (combined ICE
> & EV for 20
> minutes/7400 vertical ft).
>
> Flat and level:  My best guess is that an
> electrified Prius would
> require around 25 kW from a battery to travel 80 mph
> (312 Wh/mi); 13 kW
> for 60 mph (217 Wh/mi -- also a good figure for city
> driving); and 18 kW
> for 70 mph (257 Wh/mi).  A 20/40/60 mi EV range at
> 60 mph or city
> driving would require 4.3/8.7/13 available kWh from
> a battery, or a
> 7.2/14.4/21.7 kWh battery discharged to 60% DOD (for
> long cycle life and
> large remaining emergency energy supply).  60%
> normal depth of discharge
> (DOD) yields a 40%, or 2.9/5.8/8.7 kWh, reserve.
>
> If a headwind adds 40%, 35 kW would be required at
> 80 mph (25 kW at 70
> mph).  This means that the minimum ICE size for
> all-day driving is
> 35/0.94 = 37 hp or 28 kW.  Let's size the ground-up
> PHEV's ICE at 28.5
> kW, exactly half the Prius ICE's rating.  These two
> engines' ratings
> then translate into 71 kW and 35.5 kW equivalent
> electric input (these
> figures are used below).
>
> Hill climbing:  I have driven my Prius, lightly
> loaded (say 3300 lb
> GVW), up Donner Pass (6% maximum freeway grade) at
> 70 mph.  This
> requires 37 mechanical hp plus probably about 16 hp
> for
> straight-and-level driving at 70 mph, or a total of
> 53 hp at the wheels
> (1 hp = 550 ft-lb/sec).  The engine is rated at 76
> hp, but only 75% is
> available at 7500 ft altitude.  This leaves 57 hp,
> of which 4 hp is
> probably lost in the drivetrain, leaving the
> required 53 hp and
> validating my experience.
>
> The 53 hp for the maximum 6% freeway climb at 70 mph
> (above) translates
> into 53 kW from a battery.  The Prius' engine can
> provide all of that;
> the ground-up PHEV's half-sized engine could provide
> 26.5 kW, leaving
> the other 26.5 kW to come from the battery -- a
> total of 8.8 kWh in 20
> minutes.  A 60-mile, 60% DOD PHEV battery has enough
> reserve energy when
> "empty" to accomplish this, while a 40-mile one
> would have to have 1/3,
> or 13 miles, of its range remaining to do so.  A
> 20-mile battery has
> only 16 minutes of this sort of uphill capacity even
> when full.  In any
> case, going down the grade will produce 37 - 18 = 19
> kW that the battery
> can hopefully keep accepting for 20 minutes (6.3 kWh
> total).
>
> Acceleration:  0-60 mph in 10 seconds averages 8.8
> ft/sec*sec, or
> 0.275g.  At 3300 lb GVW, it should therefore require
> an average of 73 kW
> plus maybe 9 kW average to offset normal driving
> friction increasing
> from zero to 18 kW @ 60 mph, for a total of 82 kW
> (200 Wh total).  The
> Prius battery is rated at 21 kW (10 seconds => 58 Wh
> total), leaving 61
> kW to come from the 71 peak kW ICE, which is
> reasonable.  The ground-up
> PHEV's half-sized engine would therefore provide
> 30.5 kW, leaving 51.5
> kW to come from the battery during 10 seconds of
> acceleration (143 Wh
> total).
>
> Therefore, we have the following battery
> requirements:
>
> Prius    Prius   Ground-up
> HEV    PHEV   PHEV
> 0 kW   0 kW    0 kW       80 mph continuous driving
> (ICE only)
> 0 kW   18kW   18kW      EV driving, 70 mph, to full
> EV range
> 21kW  21kW   51.5kW   Acceleration, for 10 seconds
> 24kW  same    same       24kW      Minimum
> deceleration regenerative
> braking to capture most careful braking
>  >200kW same same       To accept full maximum
> deceleration
> 0 kW   0 kW    26.5kW   6%, 70 mph climb @ 7500 ft
> altitude, for 20 minutes
> 0kWh  0kWh  8.8kWh   6%, 70 mph climb @ 7500 ft
> altitude, for 20 minutes
> 19kW  same    same       6%, 70 mph downgrade
> 6.3kWh same  same       6%, 70 mph downgrade
>
> Note that the Prius-engined PHEV's acceleration
> requirement is barely
> larger than its maximum steady-state requirement (21
> kW vs. 18 kW), but
> that the acceleration requirement for the ground-up
> PHEV is 185% larger
> than that and double its hill-climbing requirement.
> The latter could
> benefit from a bank of supercapacitors for
> acceleration, but not the
> former.  Both have a 19 kW downgrade regenerative
> braking requirement
> that is around the same size as the maximum
> steady-state drain.
>

    Hi Ron;

     I LIKE that, or "Prius done right!" The figures
look good. Hafta try that setup in one of our Sunrise
bodies when/if we get this one going.They are lighter
than the steel bodied Prius, two of us could pick up
the basic Sunrise shell! It would be a great test bed,
for a ground up Prius Done Right. Hope we, Jerry Dycus
and a few other EV Listers can get this up an'
running. Check out EV Production Group on Yahoo.I'm
puttinhg the cart before the horse, sorry, but your'
rithmetic, to me, holds up! Hell! YOU're the Engineer
here<g>!

   Seeya

    Bob
> murdoch wrote:
>
> >bcc: various
> >
> >I have lost track of the number of times I have
> seen "ultra" or "super" caps
> >ruled out of a hybrid project for this or that
> reason.  This page by Honda is a
> >bit of a reminder that some companies are
> persisting in not ruling out
> >advanced-capacitor tech.  Note the chart in the
> bottom right-hand corner
> >indicating a comparison to their NiMH they use in
> their conventional hybrids.  I
> >do not at all mean to downplay the weak points of
> capacitors or imply they are
> >the solution in all hybrid challenges... only to
> make sure we keep them in mind
> >as we debate all manner of new vehicle propulsion
> solutions.
> >
>
>http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/ultracapacitor/charging/
> >
> >
> >
>
=== message truncated ===

Ron, check out the new batteries from A123systems, who might be very supportive
of
your efforts.   http://www.a123systems.com/html/home.html

Thanks for all your info.

Is it possible to just double up the existing batteries? Who can give me
installation
info on the over ride switch that is installed in the Prius for other markets?

allen



   _____

From: priusplus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:priusplus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Ron
Gremban
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 2:06 AM
Cc: murdoch@...; priusplus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [priusplus] Re: Honda Supercaps Web Page/PHEV design exercise



Thanks for your pointer to this page.  As there isn't anything private,
I am taking the liberty to post my response to the PriusPlus group.

I fully believe that supercaps will eventually replace batteries in
conventional hybrids.  They have all the right characteristics and need
just a 2-3x improvement in specific energy and cost.

However, PHEVs that are designed to handle the full range of ordinary
driving conditions including up and down mountain passes, must be able
to deliver and accept near-acceleration-level power continuously, and
are therefore less likely to benefit significantly from supercaps.  I
got inspired to go through a preliminary PHEV design process to see how
it might really come out:

Note: in all of the figuring below, I assume an electric
motor/controller/transmission efficiency of 75%, so that it conveniently
requires 1 kW from a battery to produce 1 hp (746W) of mechanical output
at the wheels.  To convert an ICE's output to equivalent electrical
input then requires multiplying its kW rating by around 1.25 (assuming
6% drivetrain losses) or its hp rating by 0.94 -- rating the Prius' 76
hp/57 kW engine's equivalent electric input at 71 kW.

Let's imagine two Prius-class PHEVs (at 3300 lb GVW, to match the weight
at which the Prius' acceleration and hill climbing abiltity were
measured) -- one keeping the existing ICE, the other designed from the
ground up.  To keep up with a Prius as well as with non-sports ICE cars,
it needs to have a top speed of around 100 mph (combined ICE & EV), be
able to cruise all day at 80 mph with a headwind (ICE only), accelerate
0-60 mph in 10 seconds (combined ICE & EV), and climb a 6% maximum
freeway grade mountain pass at 70 mph (combined ICE & EV for 20
minutes/7400 vertical ft).

Flat and level:  My best guess is that an electrified Prius would
require around 25 kW from a battery to travel 80 mph (312 Wh/mi); 13 kW
for 60 mph (217 Wh/mi -- also a good figure for city driving); and 18 kW
for 70 mph (257 Wh/mi).  A 20/40/60 mi EV range at 60 mph or city
driving would require 4.3/8.7/13 available kWh from a battery, or a
7.2/14.4/21.7 kWh battery discharged to 60% DOD (for long cycle life and
large remaining emergency energy supply).  60% normal depth of discharge
(DOD) yields a 40%, or 2.9/5.8/8.7 kWh, reserve.

If a headwind adds 40%, 35 kW would be required at 80 mph (25 kW at 70
mph).  This means that the minimum ICE size for all-day driving is
35/0.94 = 37 hp or 28 kW.  Let's size the ground-up PHEV's ICE at 28.5
kW, exactly half the Prius ICE's rating.  These two engines' ratings
then translate into 71 kW and 35.5 kW equivalent electric input (these
figures are used below).

Hill climbing:  I have driven my Prius, lightly loaded (say 3300 lb
GVW), up Donner Pass (6% maximum freeway grade) at 70 mph.  This
requires 37 mechanical hp plus probably about 16 hp for
straight-and-level driving at 70 mph, or a total of 53 hp at the wheels
(1 hp = 550 ft-lb/sec).  The engine is rated at 76 hp, but only 75% is
available at 7500 ft altitude.  This leaves 57 hp, of which 4 hp is
probably lost in the drivetrain, leaving the required 53 hp and
validating my experience.

The 53 hp for the maximum 6% freeway climb at 70 mph (above) translates
into 53 kW from a battery.  The Prius' engine can provide all of that;
the ground-up PHEV's half-sized engine could provide 26.5 kW, leaving
the other 26.5 kW to come from the battery -- a total of 8.8 kWh in 20
minutes.  A 60-mile, 60% DOD PHEV battery has enough reserve energy when
"empty" to accomplish this, while a 40-mile one would have to have 1/3,
or 13 miles, of its range remaining to do so.  A 20-mile battery has
only 16 minutes of this sort of uphill capacity even when full.  In any
case, going down the grade will produce 37 - 18 = 19 kW that the battery
can hopefully keep accepting for 20 minutes (6.3 kWh total).

Acceleration:  0-60 mph in 10 seconds averages 8.8 ft/sec*sec, or
0.275g.  At 3300 lb GVW, it should therefore require an average of 73 kW
plus maybe 9 kW average to offset normal driving friction increasing
from zero to 18 kW @ 60 mph, for a total of 82 kW (200 Wh total).  The
Prius battery is rated at 21 kW (10 seconds => 58 Wh total), leaving 61
kW to come from the 71 peak kW ICE, which is reasonable.  The ground-up
PHEV's half-sized engine would therefore provide 30.5 kW, leaving 51.5
kW to come from the battery during 10 seconds of acceleration (143 Wh
total).

Therefore, we have the following battery requirements:

Prius    Prius   Ground-up
HEV    PHEV   PHEV
0 kW   0 kW    0 kW       80 mph continuous driving (ICE only)
0 kW   18kW   18kW      EV driving, 70 mph, to full EV range
21kW  21kW   51.5kW   Acceleration, for 10 seconds
24kW  same    same       24kW      Minimum deceleration regenerative
braking to capture most careful braking
>200kW same same       To accept full maximum deceleration
0 kW   0 kW    26.5kW   6%, 70 mph climb @ 7500 ft altitude, for 20 minutes
0kWh  0kWh  8.8kWh   6%, 70 mph climb @ 7500 ft altitude, for 20 minutes
19kW  same    same       6%, 70 mph downgrade
6.3kWh same  same       6%, 70 mph downgrade

Note that the Prius-engined PHEV's acceleration requirement is barely
larger than its maximum steady-state requirement (21 kW vs. 18 kW), but
that the acceleration requirement for the ground-up PHEV is 185% larger
than that and double its hill-climbing requirement.  The latter could
benefit from a bank of supercapacitors for acceleration, but not the
former.  Both have a 19 kW downgrade regenerative braking requirement
that is around the same size as the maximum seady-state drain.

murdoch wrote:

>bcc: various
>
>I have lost track of the number of times I have seen "ultra" or "super" caps
>ruled out of a hybrid project for this or that reason.  This page by Honda is a
>bit of a reminder that some companies are persisting in not ruling out
>advanced-capacitor tech.  Note the chart in the bottom right-hand corner
>indicating a comparison to their NiMH they use in their conventional hybrids. 
I
>do not at all mean to downplay the weak points of capacitors or imply they are
>the solution in all hybrid challenges... only to make sure we keep them in mind
>as we debate all manner of new vehicle propulsion solutions.
>
>http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/ultracapacitor/charging/
>
>
>

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




   _____

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   _____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for your pointer to this page.  As there isn't anything private,
I am taking the liberty to post my response to the PriusPlus group.

I fully believe that supercaps will eventually replace batteries in
conventional hybrids.  They have all the right characteristics and need
just a 2-3x improvement in specific energy and cost.

However, PHEVs that are designed to handle the full range of ordinary
driving conditions including up and down mountain passes, must be able
to deliver and accept near-acceleration-level power continuously, and
are therefore less likely to benefit significantly from supercaps.  I
got inspired to go through a preliminary PHEV design process to see how
it might really come out:

Note: in all of the figuring below, I assume an electric
motor/controller/transmission efficiency of 75%, so that it conveniently
requires 1 kW from a battery to produce 1 hp (746W) of mechanical output
at the wheels.  To convert an ICE's output to equivalent electrical
input then requires multiplying its kW rating by around 1.25 (assuming
6% drivetrain losses) or its hp rating by 0.94 -- rating the Prius' 76
hp/57 kW engine's equivalent electric input at 71 kW.

Let's imagine two Prius-class PHEVs (at 3300 lb GVW, to match the weight
at which the Prius' acceleration and hill climbing abiltity were
measured) -- one keeping the existing ICE, the other designed from the
ground up.  To keep up with a Prius as well as with non-sports ICE cars,
it needs to have a top speed of around 100 mph (combined ICE & EV), be
able to cruise all day at 80 mph with a headwind (ICE only), accelerate
0-60 mph in 10 seconds (combined ICE & EV), and climb a 6% maximum
freeway grade mountain pass at 70 mph (combined ICE & EV for 20
minutes/7400 vertical ft).

Flat and level:  My best guess is that an electrified Prius would
require around 25 kW from a battery to travel 80 mph (312 Wh/mi); 13 kW
for 60 mph (217 Wh/mi -- also a good figure for city driving); and 18 kW
for 70 mph (257 Wh/mi).  A 20/40/60 mi EV range at 60 mph or city
driving would require 4.3/8.7/13 available kWh from a battery, or a
7.2/14.4/21.7 kWh battery discharged to 60% DOD (for long cycle life and
large remaining emergency energy supply).  60% normal depth of discharge
(DOD) yields a 40%, or 2.9/5.8/8.7 kWh, reserve.

If a headwind adds 40%, 35 kW would be required at 80 mph (25 kW at 70
mph).  This means that the minimum ICE size for all-day driving is
35/0.94 = 37 hp or 28 kW.  Let's size the ground-up PHEV's ICE at 28.5
kW, exactly half the Prius ICE's rating.  These two engines' ratings
then translate into 71 kW and 35.5 kW equivalent electric input (these
figures are used below).

Hill climbing:  I have driven my Prius, lightly loaded (say 3300 lb
GVW), up Donner Pass (6% maximum freeway grade) at 70 mph.  This
requires 37 mechanical hp plus probably about 16 hp for
straight-and-level driving at 70 mph, or a total of 53 hp at the wheels
(1 hp = 550 ft-lb/sec).  The engine is rated at 76 hp, but only 75% is
available at 7500 ft altitude.  This leaves 57 hp, of which 4 hp is
probably lost in the drivetrain, leaving the required 53 hp and
validating my experience.

The 53 hp for the maximum 6% freeway climb at 70 mph (above) translates
into 53 kW from a battery.  The Prius' engine can provide all of that;
the ground-up PHEV's half-sized engine could provide 26.5 kW, leaving
the other 26.5 kW to come from the battery -- a total of 8.8 kWh in 20
minutes.  A 60-mile, 60% DOD PHEV battery has enough reserve energy when
"empty" to accomplish this, while a 40-mile one would have to have 1/3,
or 13 miles, of its range remaining to do so.  A 20-mile battery has
only 16 minutes of this sort of uphill capacity even when full.  In any
case, going down the grade will produce 37 - 18 = 19 kW that the battery
can hopefully keep accepting for 20 minutes (6.3 kWh total).

Acceleration:  0-60 mph in 10 seconds averages 8.8 ft/sec*sec, or
0.275g.  At 3300 lb GVW, it should therefore require an average of 73 kW
plus maybe 9 kW average to offset normal driving friction increasing
from zero to 18 kW @ 60 mph, for a total of 82 kW (200 Wh total).  The
Prius battery is rated at 21 kW (10 seconds => 58 Wh total), leaving 61
kW to come from the 71 peak kW ICE, which is reasonable.  The ground-up
PHEV's half-sized engine would therefore provide 30.5 kW, leaving 51.5
kW to come from the battery during 10 seconds of acceleration (143 Wh
total).

Therefore, we have the following battery requirements:

Prius    Prius   Ground-up
HEV    PHEV   PHEV
0 kW   0 kW    0 kW       80 mph continuous driving (ICE only)
0 kW   18kW   18kW      EV driving, 70 mph, to full EV range
21kW  21kW   51.5kW   Acceleration, for 10 seconds
24kW  same    same       24kW      Minimum deceleration regenerative
braking to capture most careful braking
  >200kW same same       To accept full maximum deceleration
0 kW   0 kW    26.5kW   6%, 70 mph climb @ 7500 ft altitude, for 20 minutes
0kWh  0kWh  8.8kWh   6%, 70 mph climb @ 7500 ft altitude, for 20 minutes
19kW  same    same       6%, 70 mph downgrade
6.3kWh same  same       6%, 70 mph downgrade

Note that the Prius-engined PHEV's acceleration requirement is barely
larger than its maximum steady-state requirement (21 kW vs. 18 kW), but
that the acceleration requirement for the ground-up PHEV is 185% larger
than that and double its hill-climbing requirement.  The latter could
benefit from a bank of supercapacitors for acceleration, but not the
former.  Both have a 19 kW downgrade regenerative braking requirement
that is around the same size as the maximum seady-state drain.

murdoch wrote:

>bcc: various
>
>I have lost track of the number of times I have seen "ultra" or "super" caps
>ruled out of a hybrid project for this or that reason.  This page by Honda is a
>bit of a reminder that some companies are persisting in not ruling out
>advanced-capacitor tech.  Note the chart in the bottom right-hand corner
>indicating a comparison to their NiMH they use in their conventional hybrids. 
I
>do not at all mean to downplay the weak points of capacitors or imply they are
>the solution in all hybrid challenges... only to make sure we keep them in mind
>as we debate all manner of new vehicle propulsion solutions.
>
>http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/ultracapacitor/charging/
>
>
>

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
     Do-it-yourself PHEVs:  http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The latest version of this document is also available as a printable 4-page
PDF file at <http://www.priusplus.org>.
At CalCars-News <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news>, we've just
posted as text-only the latest versions of many other documents, including
an index of the CalCars-News Archive and answers to basic questions.

FACT SHEET: CalCars PRIUS+ Conversions
version 1.12 Decmber 4, 2005

1. Specificationsf or PRIUS+
2. Performance data of current prototype
3. Future prototypes and consumer conversions
4. Preliminary performance data of EnergyCS Li-Ion Conversion
5. How and when can I get a Plug-In Hybrid?
6. About The California Cars Initiative (sponsor of PRIUS+ Project)

This summary of three conversions completed since fall 2004 brings you up
to speed on what we've done -- and where we're heading. This Fact Sheet is
a work in progress (check at http://www.priusplus.org to make sure you're
reading the latest version, and, if you're reading the email version, pick
up a neatly formatted (currently 4-page version). For the latest technical
discussions, see the EAA Conversion Group URL below. Subscribe to the
Newsletter to keep up with the latest news coverage and milestones.

Note that all our mpg reports also include electricity use -- no free lunch!
Contact us if you're interested in becoming involved!

-Felix Kramer fkramer@...  Founder, California Cars Initiative
-Ron Gremban rgremban@... -- Technical Lead, PRIUS+ Project

http://www.calcars.org and http://www.priusplus.org Info
http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV -- Electric Auto Assn. Conversions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/ - PRIUS+ PHEV Conversions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news CalCars-PHEV Newsletter


1. SPECIFICATIONS FOR PRIUS+ (FIRST PRIUS CONVERSION)
* Conversion platform is Ron Gremban's stock 2004 Prius hybrid (HEV).
* Stock Prius hybrid battery pack (Panasonic nickel-metal hydride (NiMH)
6.5 Ah, 201.6 Volt, 99 lb/45kg.) remains unused during PHEV operation and
can be used in normal hybrid mode as needed, e.g., for comparison (in
future conversions, this battery will probably be removed).
* CalCars' initial battery pack, completely replacing Prius pack (for our
first prototype, we used low-performance, short-life but resilient lead
acid (PbA) for testing purposes and to obtain design criteria for
higher-performance packs): 18 electric bicycle B&B 20Ah 12Volt SLA
batteries from ElectricRider.com. (nominal 12 Ah, 2.4 kWh total at the
car's high discharge rates, 216 Volt, 260 lb without associated hardware
and components). (Pack replaced with new PbA batteries Oct 2005, after 11
months and approx. 200 charging cycles, pack unable tohandle 120A peak
discharges beyond 70% of its capacity.)
* Batteries positioned in empty well below hatchback deck, with independent
manually switchable air cooling system.
* Batteries recharged via standard 120-volt outlet in 3 hours with Brusa
NLG5 charger from MetricMind.com. (cheaper charger, longer time for larger
packs).
* Battery Management System and Controller/Display Unit (CDU) by Energy
Control Systems Engineering (EnergyCS.com) of Monrovia, CA, replaced
Toyota's Battery ECU. No change to the rest of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy
Drive (HSD) -- what used to be called Toyota Hybrid System (THS).
* Data from battery and CAN (Controller Area Network) bus interface.
Dashboard analog meters display battery voltage and current. EnergyCS
in-dash digital display includes battery voltage and current, Amp-hours
used from the battery, vehicle power requested (e.g. via throttle
position), battery state-of-charge (SOC) reported to THS, and gas used/trip
(thousandths of gallons).
* Simulated State of Charge information sent to THS is set
semi-automatically to force energy use and regenerative braking regimen
(automation has been fine-tuned in later iterations of the EnergyCS
controller).
* Configuration permits rapid reversion to standard hybrid operation using
the Prius's Battery Management System and the retained original battery.
* Operation permits electric-only mode at up to 34 mph (using
reverse-engineered "EV" button available on European and Asian Priuses;
above 34 mph, battery energy continues to assist the engine, contributing
to lower gasoline consumption. The PbA battery is good for 10 all-electric
miles, 20 miles of doubled gasolinemileage, or mixes of the two. Then
operation reverts to normal HEV mode, still using the new battery pack.


2. PHEV PERFORMANCE DATA WITH LEAD-ACID BATTERIES

* Heavy lead-acid batteries add approx. 300 lb (10%) total, reducing
mileage by approx. 5 mpg (10%) in standard HEV operation on city streets
(because of acceleration losses), but by little or nothing at highway
speeds (where wind resistance is the main factor). Lower weight from
removing the unused original pack and lower internal resistance of future
battery packs is expected to increase the efficiency of standard HEV
operation sufficiently to restore original standard HEV city mileage even
when grid-charging energy is not involved.

Equivalent mpg numbers and operation costs depend on patterns of use (total
miles driven/day, speeds driven, etc.).

The following examples show improved performance (expected to be better
with lighter, more efficient batteries. IMPORTANT: low PHEV and HEV mileage
is due to short runs, hilly Marin County terrain, and other local factors.

* Under 10-mile all-electric propulsion (at under 34 mph), infinite mpg
(i.e., no gasoline use) plus 262 grid Watt-hours/mile vs. 40-45 mpg as a
normal HEV.
* 14 mile round trips, including approx. 10 miles on hilly freeways: 80 mpg
+ 200 grid Wh/mi, compared to 36 actual HEV mpg on the same course, driving
with the extra battery weight -- otherwise maybe 40 mpg.
* 26-28 mile trips with many surface streets: 60 mpg +144 grid Wh/mi.
* Beyond 20 miles/day (40 miles/day with NiMH or 60 miles/day with Li-Ion
batteries), normal HEV mileage -- except better mileage on long descents
due to ability to store more recovered energy -- and no further electricity
use.

All-electric miles: power cost, approx. 1.5 cents/mile (assumption of 310
grid Wh/mi and 5 cents/kWh on California off-peak EV "E-9" (PG&E) rate, and
not amortizing battery cost), vs. approx. 5.6 cents/gasoline mile
($2.50/gallon, 45 mpg). (2.5 cents for 10 cents/kWh rate.)

3. ADDITIONAL PROTOTYPES, CONVERSIONS FOR CONSUMERS

* Nickel-metal hydride (Ni-MH) (30 Ah, 6.5 kWh, 190 lb extra after removal
of existing battery); up to 20-25 mile all-electric range or 40-50 mile
assisted range. In Oct 2005, CalCars announced a development program with
Electro Energy Inc. (NASDAQ EEEI) to test their bi-polar Ni-MH batteries.
* Lithium-ion (Li-Ion) (35-40 Ah, 9 kWh, 160-190 lb extra after removal of
existing hybrid battery) for the EnergyCS Prototype/EDrive cars (see next
section); up to 30 mile all-electric range or 60 mile assisted range.
Improved performance as well as additional electric range can be expected
from the above batteries, due to significantly lower internal resistance
losses.
* "Do-It Yourself" project for advanced experimenters with experience in
high-voltage projects initiated by the Electric Auto Association in October
2005,timetable for specifications and plans undetermined.
* New efforts by CalCars on other platforms, including Ford Escape Hybrid.
* We estimate automakers could provide small 30-mile range PHEVs for $3,000
more than a hybrid, $5,000 more than a non-hybrid.
* For the latest details (between updates of this Fact Sheet) see the
CalCars Vehicles page and subscribe to our CalCars News (see section 5 below).

4. VERY PRELIMINARY ENERGYCS LI-ION PERFORMANCE DATA

EnergyCS's version of PRIUS+, completed Feb. 2005, uses off-the-shelf
Valence Technology Saphion U Li-Ion batteries (for pack spec see Section 3
above), plus specialized monitoring and control circuits. These
automatically select EV operation at low speeds during low power usage, and
provide electric motor benefits at all speeds. This vehicle will be the
starting point for retrofits to be available in 2006 from EDrive Systems.
(CalCars and EDrive have no contractual or relationship; we support their
efforts.)

Equivalent mpg numbers and operation costs depend on patterns of use (total
miles driven/day, speeds driven). EnergyCS will document performance under
third-party testing auspices. Following are examples reported by EnergyCS:

* Under 35-mile trip all-electric propulsion (at under 34 mph), infinite
mpg (i.e., no gasoline) plus 200 Watt-hours/mile.
* 70 mile trip, 80% 55 mph freeway, 20% city: 120-180 mpg + 115-150 grid
Wh/mi, compared to est. 55 mpg as a normal HEV.
* Beyond 50-60 miles/day, normal HEV mileage -- except better mileage on
long descents due to ability to store more recovered energy -- and no
further electricity use.

All-electric miles: power cost approx. 1.0 cents/mile (assumption of 200
Wh/mi and 5 cents/kWh on California off-peak EV "E-9" (PG&E) rate, or 2
cents/mile at 10 cents/kWh electricity, not amortizing battery cost), vs.
approx. 5.6 cents/gasoline mile ($2.50/gallon, 45 mpg).

5. HOW AND WHEN CAN I GET A PLUG-IN HYBRID?

Thanks for asking. Quick answer: most people will have to wait for
automakers to build them. To keep people up-to-date on the progress of
CalCars, plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) in general, and conversions, please join
our CalCars-News list. At http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news, you
can subscribe to our low-traffic newsletter -- or watch the News Archive
for our progress.

Prius conversions will operate like any other Prius, with no necessity to
drive slower or differently. They will re-charge overnight from
conventional 120-volt outlets (no need to hunt for a place to plug in
during the day).

The initial EDrive Prius systems are proof of concept prototypes. EDrive
Systems, LLC is working with technology partners EnergyCS, Clean-Tech and
Valence Technology to reduce component, manufacturing and installation
costs. EDrive's goal is to have a commercial retrofit option available in
2006 with an installed cost of $10-$12,000. Initial systems will be
installed in Southern California. Additional licensed installers may make
EDrive systems available elsewhere later in 2006. To find out more, see he
EDrive Frequently Asked Questions at
http://www.edrivesystems.com/Edrive-FAQ.html

EDrive's first conversions will be for 2004-2006 Prius (not 1997-2003
"Classic"). Later, conversions from EDrive, CalCars or others, including
the EAA project described in Section 3 may be possible for other Toyota and
Ford hybrids. Because of Honda's different architecture for Insight, Civic,
Accord (in Integrated Motor Assist cars, the engine always runs when the
electric motor is in use), and we'll wait for Honda to make PHEVs .

Toyota could decide that the conversion voids some or part of your car or
hybrid system warranty (unless the company worries that will tarnish its
green image). We won't know how dealers will respond to service requests
for this car until we start driving them. Read the Specialty Equipment
Marketing Association perspective on warranties and aftermarket conversions.

To learn more about PHEVs, hybrids and alternative fuel vehicles:

http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV -- Electric Auto Assn. conversions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/ - PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gridable-hybrids -- PHEV general discussions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-2G -- 2004 Prius issues
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius_Technical_Stuff -- Prius nuts and bolts
http://www.priuschat.com -- general Prius info and talk
http://www.hybridcars.com -- all about hybrids
http://www.evworld.com/electrichybrid.dfm -- focus on PHEVs at site for
general coverage of alternative fuel and advanced technology vehicles

Meanwhile, we thank you in advance for your encouragement, and hope you'll
spread the word about our efforts. If you know of any individuals in a
position to discuss fleet purchases, provide us with substantial support or
celebrity endorsements, please send them our way. If you want to contact
automakers to tell them you'd like PHEVs, we suggest you contact your local
dealer, and feel free to send a copy of any email you write to
info@....

6. INTRODUCING CALCARS, SPONSOR OF THE PRIUS+ PROJECT

The California Cars Initiative <http://www.calcars.org> is a Palo
Alto-based nonprofit startup. We're a group of entrepreneurs, engineers,
environmentalists and consumers promoting high-efficiency, low-emission
cars and harnessing buyer demand to help commercialize advanced
technologies. Somewhat uniquely, we focus both on public policy and
technology development. Formed in 2002, our efforts for "100+MPG Hybrids"
began to be noticed in early 2005 when we were covered in The New York
Times, Business Week, TIME, Newsweek, National Public Radio, and local and
national TV. (See <http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html> for print, audio and
video clips.)

We're demonstrating the immediate opportunity and benefits of "plug-in"
hybrids (PHEVs). The next generation of hybrid cars can be based entirely
on existing components. They're basically like some current hybrids but
with larger batteries and the ability to re-charge conveniently, so local
travel is electric, yet the vehicle has unlimited range. We see it as the
future pathway to multi-fuel and biofuel/cellulosic ethanol PHEVs -- the
cars that get 500 MPG (of gasoline) that people are talking about. Here's
how we describe PHEVs:

It's like having a second small fuel tank you always use first. You get to
fill it at home with electricity at an equivalent cost of under $1/gallon.
How much under depends on your car and your electric rate. You refill from
an ordinary 120-volt socket, with energy that's much cleaner, cheaper and
not imported. Or another way of thinking about this: at $3 for a gallon of
gas, driving a non-hybrid car costs 8-20 cents/mile (depending on its MPG).
With a PHEV, all-electric local travel and commuting can drop to 2-4
cents/mile.

We began with a prototype conversion we call "PRIUS+" to bring attention to
plug-in hybrids and encourage car makers to build them. We "green-tuned" a
stock 2004 Prius by adding batteries and grid-charging. (We replaced the
battery control system but didn't modify the hybrid controls.) Our
proof-of-concept used lead-acid batteries. We document our effort at our
open-source-style technology discussion group at
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus> (see chronology from June '04-May
'05 at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/message/421). We're
working with Electro Energy Inc. (NASDAQ: EEEI) to demonstrate the
viability for PHEvs of nickel-metal hydride (Ni-MH) batteries used in
current hybrids: see
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/175>. And we
expect to work with other battery suppliers.

EDrive Systems LLC, a for-profit integration company in Southern California
<http://www.edrivesystems.com>, installed even better lithium-ion (Li-Ion)
packs to get 100+MPG (plus costs of electric power). EDrive intends to
begin selling PRIUS+-style retrofits in early 2006, with a goal of pricing
conversions at $10-$12,000. At
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/37> on May 2 we
explained how our efforts intersect. View their Frequently Asked Questions
at <http://www.edrivesystems.com/Edrive-FAQ.html>. Meanwhile, a separate
group of engineers experienced with high voltage has started a
EAA-PHEV,  "do-it-yourself" conversion project that we are advising:
<http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV>.

We're also involved in advocacy and public policy, bringing together the
growing attention given to this "up-and-coming" technology. New
organizations that have in part been catalyzed by our efforts include
SetAmericaFree, Plug-In Austin (soon to go national as Plug-In Partners),
Plug In America, and a trade association, the Plug-In Hybrid Consortium. A
bipartisan Congressional coalition has introduced legislation promoting
flex-fuel plug-in hybrids. We're educating the large market of car buyers
who will pay extra for all the benefits to them and society of better cars.
We're presenting PHEVs, along with wind and solar power, as a coordinated
response to two of today's greatest challenges: global warming and energy
security. We've spoken at high-visibility venues including the Palo Alto
Research Center (former Xerox PARC) Forum and the Electric Drive
Transportation Association Conference. We've recently engaged with noted
designer/architect William McDonough, responsible for the new Ford River
Rouge plant, to incorporate Cradle to Cradle approaches to our future
strategies. And we're working with Free Range Studios (makers of The
Meatrix and Store Wars) to produce entertaining info online.

Our goal is to motivate automakers to build PHEVs for a market we expect to
expand as the Kyoto Protocols and parallel state and international
greenhouse gas initiatives are phased in. We're exploring with public
officials ways to provide incentives to auto makers to build PHEVs.

Working with other PHEV advocates, we're developing innovative ways to meet
expected demand from utility, government and corporate fleets, and early
adopters for 10,000-100,000 vehicles before a car company delivers
production PHEVs. To take advantage of that who-knows-how-long window of
opportunity, we're exploring ways for a California company to partner as a
Qualified Vehicle Modifier (QVM) with an auto maker to design, assemble and
sell PHEVs -- at a price several thousand dollars higher than conventional
hybrids, which would provide a lower lifetime cost of ownership than any
other vehicle type. For info on our plans see
<http://www.calcars.org/sjmercury-vcinsider+calcars-opportunity.pdf>.
Conversion possibilities include the Ford Escape hybrid, forthcoming
hybrids from Hyundai and others, and all cars that use Toyota's "Hybrid
Synergy Drive" (Prius, Lexus, Highlander, Nissan).

We're a mostly-volunteer effort. We've gotten contributions from, among
others, a well-known entrepreneur and the Energy Foundation, with others to
come. We accept tax-deductible donations and offer a unique bumper sticker
to Charter Sponsors.

Founder Felix Kramer says, "I'm a startup person and environmentalist going
way back <http://www.nlightning.com/resume.html>. In 2001, I sold
eConstructors.com (marketplace for web development) and began advising
Rocky Mountain Institute/Amory Lovins' Hypercar Inc. My change in focus
from that futuristic simulation to immediate solutions led to the launch of
CalCars in 2002. My personal motivation evolved from general environmental
goals to seeing PHEVs as a keystone component of a strategy to address
global warming both nationally and internationally. See
<http://www.calcars.org/globalwarming.html>. I envision millions of PHEVs,
charged from off-peak electricity from a modernized grid and from
distributed photovoltaic and wind power, with the range extension engine
powered by zero-carbon cellulose ethanol, as a way to significantly reduce
the more than 30% of greenhouse gases that come from transportation. See my
blog, Power, Plugs and People at <http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power>."

California Cars Initiative  info@...
PO Box 61045   Palo Alto, CA 94306



--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
        Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
       Founder  California Cars Initiative
              http://www.calcars.org
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
      http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
    http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EAA-PHEV
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --

This is almost 6 years old, but still interesting:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/waste/studies/batteries/nicd.pdf

Tim Brown

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:26:38 -0700, you wrote:

>Though I won't answer all questions raised recently, I do think battery
>costs and their effect on PHEV cost-of-ownership are relevant.
>
>However, as technical lead for a small nonprofit organization (us) I
>have had very limited and unreliable access to volume pricing
>information.  Also, what I do have is not for public disclosure.
>Therefore, I have had to get as much mileage as possible from the
>snippets of information I have acquired, as well as refrain from giving
>many specifics.
>
>As clearly stated in my "Battery evaluation and production cost summary"
>of July 21, the $600/kWh NiMH price is a projection based on 150% of the
>wholesale price I was quoted for Chinese NiMH "D" cells.  I just now
>remembered and looked up an approximate volume quote of $735/kWh for a
>more appropriate NiMH module from a major manufacturer.  It's a little
>higher than my guess, but not out of the ballpark.  Electro Energy has
>not quoted any specific prices, but they have assured us that their
>pricing will be "competitive".  They are also working on a future Li-ion
>product using their unique packaging.
>
>For Li-ion, I projected $400/kWh from an approximate real wholesale
>price of $3 each for 18650 cells.  Again, it was a tenuous strategy, but
>appears to have made sense, as a manufacturer of large-scale Li-ion
>batteries has recently estimated a high volume price of . . . $400/kWh!

Ron:

Thanks for trying to answer and further clarify and explore
these battery pricing questions.

In a post a couple of weeks ago you said:

---------------------
"In my "Battery evaluation and production cost summary"
message of July 21, I stated that I believe an auto
manufacturer would currently pay $600/kWh or less for a NiMH
battery pack capable of 150,000 miles, or $400/kWh for a
Li-ion pack."
---------------------

This confused me a bit as I mentioned, and I went back to
read your post from then.  I think the confusion was that
you were stating things in terms of what an auto
manufacturer 'might be willing to pay', and not in terms of
what pricing manufacturers might be reasonably able to
offer, going forward.  This latter seems to be more of what
you are clarifying here... what sort of pricing we can
guestimate might be available going forward, basing this on
a few manufacturer-side pieces of data.

In any event, I think for now you have done some good
research on battery cost and availability questions, so
thanks for going over these matters.  As mentioned in
private email, it is just not possible for me and others to
avoid wondering as to how Electro Energy intends to provide
BEV/PHEV-suitable NiMH batteries when everyone else seems to
be unwilling or legally precluded (or some combination) from
doing so, but I'm not sure it's necessary to clarify that
publicly, if it is sensitive information.

You have also made some mention, if memory serves, of the
comparatively unproven nature of Lithium, and to me this
provided some explanation as to why an auto manufacturer
might want to pay a more "skeptical" price for Lithium...
taking into account that there are some unproven
life-of-battery issues there, whereas with NiMH, we (both
consumers and others) are further along in understanding the
lifetime expectations we have for NiMH in some of our
hybrids.

I believe you have emphasized that there is a looming
unanswered question out there as to
battery-lifetime-issues-in-PHEVs, and that these questions
are hard to answer without some years of on-road testing
(sorry for any mis-stating of the exact issue here).

jb_hybrid_ford wrote:

> OK, so NiMHs are not the best choice.  <snip>

The NiMH chemistry has lower specific energy than li-ion, but auto
manufacturers are already using them in mass-produced vehicles.  With
the Electro Energy batteries, we will be showing that NiMH batteries can
successfully power a PHEV.  Some, if not all, mass-produced PHEVs may
well use NiMH batteries for the first few years until li-ion (or yet
another chemistry) takes over.

>
>
> As I recall Lithium Polymers had some good characterics (including
> weight) but had problems with adequate power.  I haven't heard much
> talke about them.

I have been considering lithium polymer cells to be a type of li-ion.
In general, they have excellent high power handling capabilities but
equally high prices.  They may or may not have safety advantages; each
product needs to be tested and evaluated separately.  For example, 18650
cells can have built-in pressure cutout as well as temperature cutout
switches built in to help avoid fires, but the packaging of lithium
polymer cells may just bulge instead of activating such a built-in switch.

>
> Ron said:  "-- and that still wouldn't affect similar peak hill-
> climbing and descent currents, which can last for minutes."

This remark applied to the use of supercapacitor banks to handle peak
currents.  The point was that there can be real value to be gained by
having the battery pack able to handle full regenerative braking, if not
acceleration, currents, rather than depending on supercaps to do so.

>
> I think that the most economical PHEV would simply lose some charge
> from an extreme downhill and require some I.C. motorized assist on
> an extreme uphill.  I don't know exactly what the extremes would be,
> but I could see that at some point, the cost for a given performance
> would rise dramatically.  Sometimes I think there is a desire to
> have full E.V. behavior for the first 20 miles or so, but clearly
> that's probably not the least-cost option, especially under these
> extreme conditions.  <snip>

I have previously talked about there being a range of EV vs. ICE
capabilities possible for PHEVs (just as for HEVs).  Near one end is the
PRIUS+, which is capable of only limited EV operation in terms of both
speed and acceleration; and is capable of no more than doubling gasoline
mileage until the battery is depleted.  At the other end is a serial
hybrid with a small ICE disconnected from the drivetrain and running a
generator as necessary to maintain the battery's state of charge above a
minimum.  Lots of things between these extremes are possible AND WILL BE
TRIED, because no one yet knows what is optimum in the real world, and,
in fact, the optimum may vary for different costumers' driving regimes
-- just as the mildly hybridized Insight gets better highway mileage
than a Prius, but the Prius does its best in city driving.

For now, CalCars is focussing on what can be done with merely electrical
modifications to existing full hybrid vehicles, because this is where
the short-term leverage exists for quickly getting mass-produced PHEVs
into the marketplace.  And even such vehicles, not originally optimized
as PHEVs, can be remarkably good!  Later there will be plenty of time to
debate the fine points of PHEV optimization.

> "We model our effort on "Open Source" software development projects:
> We draw on the expertise and solutions of a broad group of experts
> and no individual owns any resulting intellectual property."
>
> "Since we don't keep our discussions secret, our MESSAGE ARCHIVES
> ARE OPEN to the public. We remain highly focused, relatively low-
> traffic and spam-free. In this working group, members post messages
> based on their specialties."
>
> And from the last post:
> > CalCars is pursuing Li-ion options that we can't yet talk about
> > publicly.

Well, we are trying to balance on a razor edge here.  To pursue specific
batteries, Felix and I (CalCars' two full-time volunteers) have found
that we must respect various manufacturers' needs for confidentiality.
This means that there are certain specifics and deals that we cannot
discuss in our public forum until they have reached a point where we are
able to make a public announcement, as has now occurred with Electro
Energy Inc.  This is one of the limits we have found to how thoroughly a
project can be run as a public forum.

>
> I apologize for posting items off-topic.  Apparently, batteries for
> others to use fall in that category as well.

On-topic for this list are discussions of things directly related to
CalCars' current conversion projects, the PRIUS+ and the ESCAPE+.  I
apologize that though I try to avoid it, I, too, sometimes allow myself
to be led off into more general PHEV discussions.

> <snip>
>
> -Jim

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ron Gremban, rgremban@...
     California Cars Initiative, a nonprofit organization: 
http://www.CalCars.org
     Moderator & Technical Lead
     http://www.priusplus.org
     PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus
     Newsletter:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++