Question without notice........

Was there a clear inventor of the multi-plate motorcycle clutch that
is now standard issue on all motorcycles ( bar Guzzi & BMW ), or
did it just evolve ?

You know the thing - a slotted outer clutch basket with alternating
steel and friction plates, 4-6 coil / dish springs etc etc.

It had became standard fitment by the early 20's, but did it appear
on one brand or maybe developed by one of the specialist
transmission suppliers ?


Cheers             IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Well that rash exposition on my part certainly led to an avalanche of info, much
of it very thoughtful and worthwhile. I have probably been too influenced by the
`doom-porn' (Club Orlov etc) which I am partial to. My appreciation to those who
have offered alternative views on the subject. I feel put in my place (although
I also tend to favor the pessimistic approach expostulated in The Oil Drum).

When I was living in Vancouver in the 1970s I recall discussion about extracting
salable hydrocarbons from the Albertan oil sands – but it was framed more or
less lie science fiction. `...someday...' I do not recall anyone projecting that
by the turn of the century it would have been ramped up the way it is now.

The deeper-and-deeper drilling is truly fascinating technology, worth study to
be sure.

Still I have to say I'm looking forward to riding my first 100kg / 150hp
electric sportsbike. I don't care if it will need a battery swap after an hour –
why not have stations where fully-charged lozenge units (with bar coding to
indicate age, performance, ownership et al) can be clicked into a bat-slot in a
matter of seconds. Quicker than swapping a cell phone battery.

Watching those electric babbies run on YouTube gives me goose bumps.

BB




--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, hobot <hobot@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe the easy pickins is over but some are making a go at deep taps.
> Major western oil cartels told Viet Nam they were screwed leaving the
> fold w/o any resources to harvest. Boy did they upset some dogma by
> not just one but two impossible producing oil fields
> http://abiogenicpetroleum.com/
> http://www.rense.com/general75/zoil.htm
>
> hobot
>
> On 12/1/2011 5:52 AM, Byron wrote:
> >
> >
> > It's true, alas. I do the editing of English-language technical papers
> > each year for the Indonesian Petroleum Association's annual
> > convention, and in the past couple of years the trend has been toward
> > squeezing blood from the stone, so to speak.
> >
> > Little bits of hydrocarbons here and there, or way down deep in the
> > ocean trenches... meaning, quite problematical to bring to the surface.
> >
> > Looks like the party's over.
> >
> > bb
> >
>

> Still I have to say I'm looking forward to riding my first 100kg / 150hp
electric sportsbike.

Don't get too focused on the hp thing, acceleration is entirely about torque.

I was helping prepare and develop a Porsche 914 electric racer back in
the late 90's out in the US. The last time we raced we were sharing
track time with the National Auto Sports Association. The Firebird
circuit had set up two pit areas, one for the electrics and one for
the 'regular' vehicles. We had set up the motor controller to limit
the current drawn from the battery so that based on full throttle time
and race length we'd cross the line at pretty much 100% discharged,
but without the driver having to concentrate on energy management.
When we went out to practice with the NASA boys, we were configured
for the 25 lap race and that meant a peak power from the battery of
35Kw. The NASA cars were a mix of BMWs, RX7s, lower capacity 911s,
etc. and we had no trouble keeping up with or even passing probably
the bottom 2/3rds of the field. Quite a few NASA drivers came over to
out pit to check that we really were an EV, but what really blew them
away was when we told them our power output. They simply couldn;t wrap
their heads aroud the idea that a car weighing 3100lbs and producing
just 46.9hp (assuming 100% motor/driveline efficiency, I'd estimate
that 40bhp at the rear wheels was more accurate) could under any
circumstances keep up with them. I did point out that we were running
street legal race tyres (effectively slicks after a few hot laps) and
much more track oriented suspension setup, but what really made the
difference was our torque curve. Once we were off and rolling, the
torque was effectively flat across the rev range. After a little bit
of experimentation, our driver used only 3rd gear (just as well
considering just how appaling the shift is in a 914).

Quite a lot of these electric sports bikes are just multiplying
battery voltage by peak controller current to get the hp figure. It's
not an operating point you'd ever achieve.


> Watching those electric babbies run on YouTube gives me goose bumps.

It makes me feel nostalgic. I really must build another electric bike.

--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk

Hi Gavin...I've made manifolds from both 6061 aluminum and mild steel...depends
on what I need to do.6061 is good if you need to taper ID but is more difficult
to bend....only way I have found to "bend" is to make a 1/16 inch cut almost all
the way thru and then bend and TIG weld,you do that enough times and you got a
bend.On steel tubing,you know you can always use a torch and bend...I've even
filled them with sand,capped,heat with rosebud tip and bend...that works OK.Or
if you have a die bender like a Hossfeld bender,that's better yet.A "Y" shaped
manifold would be a bit more complicated...will it be mounted solid at head and
cantilever out?That's a long lever for weight of carb to work thru....I'd want
it robust close to the head.

--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "Gavin Bedggood" <gavinnz@...> wrote:
>
> Question for the group....
>
> I am going to make an inlet manifold for my Gilera....
> I am fitting a 558 Nordwest engine that left the fatcory with twin carbs into
a Saturno chassis that had a 350 engine with room for a single carb only between
the frame rails.
>
> I have a 40mm Dellorto PHM to go on it and I will make a "Y" shaped manifold
to mount the single carb.
>
> My question is about the lightest material to make a inlet mainfold from?
>
> Aluminum?  Or could I fabricate it lighter in light gauge steel??
> What about carbon fibre?  I am not sure it would take the vibration...
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Regards
> Gavin
> Gilera Saturno Bialbero Superleggera 558 project
>

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 12:04 AM, Ian <iwd@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Question without notice........
>
> Was there a clear inventor of the multi-plate motorcycle clutch that
> is now standard issue on all motorcycles ( bar Guzzi & BMW ), or
> did it just evolve ?
>
> You know the thing - a slotted outer clutch basket with alternating
> steel and friction plates, 4-6 coil / dish springs etc etc.
>
> It had became standard fitment by the early 20's, but did it appear
> on one brand or maybe developed by one of the specialist
> transmission suppliers ?
>
> Cheers IAN


I know Harley-s first transmission was a 2 speed rear hub. But I can't
remember how the primary was set up. I know it had pidals (as the
Antarctic Angels would say).

Dan W

>Don't get too focused on the hp thing, acceleration is entirely about torque.


This is a "pub argument" favorite, is maximum acceleration at peak
torque or peak power ?   The answer is at peak power if there is any
way of altering the drive ratio ( including tyre diameter ).

Maximum acceleration comes from maximizing tractive force, which
would seem outwardly to be at the engine's maximum torque - but
"for a given speed", you can raise the tractive force by taking the
engine to the revs giving maximum power and changing the drive ratio.

The flat torque output of a ( relatively ) high performance electric bike
is impressive and can catch riders out, as they are accustomed to
a rising torque curve of an ICE engine.   I see it all the time as my
neighbour manufactures the Stealth Mountain bikes, I've seen several
riders crash their E-bikes into stationary objects on their first test ride.
( They also get caught out by the "ready to go" silence when
stationary )


>Quite a lot of these electric sports bikes are just multiplying
>battery voltage by peak controller current to get the hp figure. It's
>not an operating point you'd ever achieve.


No argument there.



Cheers           IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

--- Original message

> >Don't get too focused on the hp thing, acceleration is entirely about torque.
>
>
================================
For any given road speed there will usually be choice of more than one gear to
be in.

http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/images/tech/3.jpg

Look at these dyno tests of modern V8/10 sports cars.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0512_exotic_sport_coupes_comparis\
on/dyno.html

The torque curves of the supercharged and normally aspirated are mighty flat. 
If engine torque was the prevailing parameter behind vehicular acceleration,
shifting at 3500 rpm would produce virtually the same acceleration to 135 mph or
even 1/4 mile times as shifting slightly above the HP peak.

If the goal at any instant is to produce the greatest torque AT THE WHEELS, then
the trans gear that has the engine at an rpm to make the most HP will be the
winner. That's the advantage of thinking in HP, but not the single peak number
normally monopolizing most conversations.  HP (at the conditions being
discussed) strips out tire diameter and gear ratio.

Here are some HP/torque curves allegedly for some TESLA vehicle.
http://www.brosen.com/files/torque.png
Tesla uses an induction motor, so probably needs fancy electronics to turn the
DC in the batteries into AC, varying the frequency to opearte at a full range of
rpm. Still fairly typical of electric motor used in vehicles, with the highest
torque (and thus some useful HP) at low rpm.

I started a simple wiki at Google sites to record the wisdom of the two
lists, MC Chassis and MC engine. And I put in the datalogger hardware
sites mentioned lately.

https://sites.google.com/site/mcchassiswiki/

Recently Jonathan has been adding a lot of good information, and that
has already made the wiki more useful and interesting. ( thanks J. !)
If anyone else wants to add stuff, it would be most welcome. To get
access to write, email me with your mail address and ask.

John

Hi Chaps. This is before my time but there is a TA 125 being auctioned here in
New Zealand. It is not running and is already at $2700. Are these bikes very
special?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=427480026

Cheers Wallace.

>This is before my time but there is a TA 125 being auctioned here in
>New Zealand. It is not running and is already at $2700. Are these
>bikes very special?
>
><http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=427480026>http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?i\
d=427480026



Outside my area of interest / expertise, but I think all 2 stroke
racers are increasing in value, even stuff like recent Honda
motocrossers, people are nostalgic for them already.


Cheers             IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

 

>This is before my time but there is a TA 125 being auctioned here in
>New Zealand. It is not running and is already at $2700. Are these
>bikes very special?
>
><http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=427480026>http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=427480026

Outside my area of interest / expertise, but I think all 2 stroke
racers are increasing in value, even stuff like recent Honda
motocrossers, people are nostalgic for them already.

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

 

Hi Chaps. This is before my time but there is a TA 125 being auctioned here in New Zealand. It is not running and is already at $2700. Are these bikes very special?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=427480026

Cheers Wallace.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 12:40 PM, marshengnz <marshland@...> wrote:
> Hi Chaps. This is before my time but there is a TA 125 being auctioned here in
New Zealand. It is not running and is already at $2700. Are these bikes very
special?

You might find this interesting:
http://www.classicyams.com/race-bikes/productionracers/yamaha-as1/as3-racers.htm\
l

>Outside my area of interest / expertise, but I think all 2 stroke >racers are
increasing in value

Well then I better keep my Suzuki GT125 twin for a while longer. I was thinking
of moving it on. It is somewhat modified for racing but when I bought it, I got
all the cycle parts as well.

The pipes aren't any good and the power band is from 8900 to 9000.

Our pre 72 class is a bit thin so I could "race" it in there but is really is a
74 bike. The trouble is it is no good in the pre 82 class.

Cheers Wallace

They were sold as racers back when Yamaha was also selling TD2s.  The early ones
only had a 5-speed where the later ones had a 6-speed.  They were all air
cooled.

John Mead

--- On Sun, 12/4/11, marshengnz <marshland@...> wrote:

> From: marshengnz <marshland@...>
> Subject: Yamaha TA 125
> To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, December 4, 2011, 3:40 PM
> Hi Chaps. This is before my time but
> there is a TA 125 being auctioned here in New Zealand. It is
> not running and is already at $2700. Are these bikes very
> special?
>
> http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=427480026
>
> Cheers Wallace.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     mc-engine-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

>It seems to get worse as the temperature gets warmer and I
>occasionally get a whiff of antifreeze.
SNIP
>  I sealed and pressure tested through the spark plug hole and went
> to 14.79 psi to 13.65 psi in 5 minutes.  Is that considered bad?


Pretty d@mn good I'd say.

Sounds a bit like ignition and / or squish problem to me, or these
combined with carburetor set up.  The coolant leak might be
contributing too, although the coolant smell could equally be a
result of the overheating.


Cheers             IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Hi Dan,
I would say, you should reduce compression ratio by modifying the combustion
chamber. Don't forget: You were increasing displacement by 25% ! Modifying
combustion-chamber has primarily nothing to do with squish, you should keep the
~0.065" clearance.
Next thing: Does the new piston have the same dome-radius? If not, a "negative"
squishband-angle could have been the result.
I recently made some cast-models of my '85 TY250-Yamaha-combustion chamber. I
know, it's not very modern, but they made a positiv opening squishband. Piston
dome-angle is 7deg., squishband-angle  16deg.
I would be curious about modern trials-bike combustion chamber shapes.

Cheers,
Hans

--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Dan McManus <dan.mcmanus5@...> wrote:
>
> Timing is set to factory spec.  Some run it more advanced.  Could this be a
> CDI issue?
>
> Beta does not give a specification for squish but I set it to .045".  Could
> that be too tight?  It required removing .037 from the bottom of the
> cylinder.  The squish for the 200 was > .062 (thickest solder I had at the
> time)
>
> Could the carb needle or slide have an effect?  I have not been able to
> find out if there is a difference on those between the 200s and 250s from
> the factory.
>
> The most surprising thing is that for a pinging/ knocking POS it performs
> pretty well.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Ian <iwd@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> > >It seems to get worse as the temperature gets warmer and I
> > >occasionally get a whiff of antifreeze.
> > SNIP
> >
> > > I sealed and pressure tested through the spark plug hole and went
> > > to 14.79 psi to 13.65 psi in 5 minutes. Is that considered bad?
> >
> > Pretty d@mn good I'd say.
> >
> > Sounds a bit like ignition and / or squish problem to me, or these
> > combined with carburetor set up. The0 coolant leak might be
> > contributing too, although the coolant smell could equally be a
> > result of the overheating.
> >
> > Cheers IAN
> >
> > See www.drysdalev8.com for :
> > - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
> > - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
> > - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
> > - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
> >
> >
> >
>

 

I recently increased the displacement of a modern trials bike (Beta) from 200 to 250 with  bigger bore.  Since that time, I get a lot of knocking when cutting the throttle.  Making the carb richer helped but I'm now at the point where it is rich (hard to start, sputters a bit) on throttle and quite lean (knocking) off throttle.  Sometimes I will get a rolling idle but mostly it is OK.  It seems to get worse as the temperature gets warmer and I occasionally get a whiff of antifreeze.  The plug is black but has a little quarter moon of white/ tan.  This seems like it should be an air leak.  I sealed and pressure tested through the spark plug hole and went to 14.79 psi to 13.65 psi in 5 minutes.  Is that considered bad?  I put soapy water around the crank seal and intake manifold but don't see any leaks.

Are there any recommendations on what else to look at?  Could simply running hot for some unknown reason cause this?

Thanks,

Frustrated Dan in CA          

>Beta does not give a specification for squish but I set it to
>.045".  Could that be too tight?  It required removing .037 from the
>bottom of the cylinder.


You've increased the capacity 25% AND taken 0.037" off the cylinder ?

I tend to agree with the other posts, sounds like way too much
compression ( and still possibly squish issues ).



Cheers            IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

>It is one thing to demonstrate a prototype, another one for the
>thing to have a real life ...
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pDKDAurri9M>http://www.\
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pDKDAurri9M


Seems to be at the Sydney motorcycle show.

Whilst the bike has predominately Yamaha logos, it also has "RMIT
University" logos too (an institution that I spent a lot of time studying at).
The very competitive RMIT FSAE team run Yamaha WR450 engines,
so it seems they have hooked up to build this bike too.

I see if i can find out more about it.


Cheers            IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

measuring CR http://www.sacoriver.net/~red/uccr.html I have always used what he
calls the uncorrected method here on 350.Piston at TDC,heavy grease around
piston OD and on valve interface to stop leaks and then cc that volume thru
spark plug hole.Then subtract 2.5 cc for volume of spark plug then calculate.I'm
not that familar with how it's done on 2 strokes....is it usually the correted
method?

--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Ian <iwd@...> wrote:
>
>
> >Beta does not give a specification for squish but I set it to
> >.045".  Could that be too tight?  It required removing .037 from the
> >bottom of the cylinder.
>
>
> You've increased the capacity 25% AND taken 0.037" off the cylinder ?
>
> I tend to agree with the other posts, sounds like way too much
> compression ( and still possibly squish issues ).
>
>
>
> Cheers            IAN
>
>
> See www.drysdalev8.com for :
> - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
> - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
> - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
> - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
>