On the Honda 125 and Yamaha 500, there is an o-ring at the bottom of the
cylinder. As the cylinder seals against the crankcase housing with a gasket, why
the O-ring ? It is not as though there is any pressure buildup there.

Is it for damping, where the sleeve exits the barrel ?

Cheers Wallace

Ian, 219H is used as a drive chain on a number of karts.  Are you
thinking of the bigger #35 kart chain not being recommended for
camchains?

Looking at cam chain fitment lists I find that CB160, XL175, XL250,
CB350, CB77, CB450 , CB550 , CB750 , Z1 , GS400/450/500 , GS650 ,
GS1000, XJ650, XS750 and XS1100 use 219H

Almost all small Japanese singles 0-125cc and XR200 (except the
XL175 which seems to have been designed more around the XL250
specs than the CB100/125) use 25H

There's also some camchains that are BF05M, BF05MA, BF05T
(XS650, SR250, KZ250).

This morning I had better luck on searching with the BF prefix and that
appears to be a metric standard.  This is also used as a drive chain on
pocket bikes.

http://www.fancyscooter.com/Images/chainDiagram_400.jpg
http://www.chinaenlin.com/cpjs06.htm

25H   6.35mm pitch, 3.3mm OD roller, 3.18mm wide roller.
219H 7.774mm pitch, 4.59mm OD roller, 5mm wide roller
05T    8mm pitch  4.71mm OD rollers x 4.61mm wide roller

How 05T is considered interchangeable with 219H escapes me.

Bear with me while I convert to inches so the small sizes mean
something to me:

219H:  .306 pitch x .1807" OD roller x .1968" wide roller
BF05T: .315" pitch x .1854" OD roller x .1815" wide roller

The 05T has a higher strength than regular 219 but less than 219H
according to

  so that's why some people have grabbed on to it as an racing
"upgrade" from 219.

I suppose the BF just rides a little higher up on the teeth when used on
a 219H sprocket.


Whilst searching I found a draft of a Malaysian standard on m/c chain
and I've put a copy of that Word document on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc

That's sure a lot more than I knew about small chains yesterday.

cheers,
Michael

Sorry to bring it up again guys but I need some fairly specific technical input
here from someone with more experience than me.

I've got a pretty good idea on the curves I need to fit these pipes in a chassis
(it's actually a snowmobile, not a bike, but I'm sure the pipe doesn't know or
care) now whenever I've played with this in the past I've always but welded the
2 cutouts and had problems with them crinkling a bit (maybe 1 pipe in 4) and the
curves would flex inwards. Now I didn't look too close at what the rate of
additional curvature was and I'm regretting it now because I'd really like to
punch out a template that'll get me 9/10ths of the way thru fitting the pipes
before I have to start taking out any additional pie slices.

So the question is: Does anyone have any knowledge of HOW MUCH it flexes? and
what variables are involved? radius, angle of curvature, wall thickness etc.
Maybe I can coax it into behaving nicely by going slow or applying some heat or
"a 10# massage" at a strategic moment and location.

I'd rather not resort to heat, the idea of heating a water containing vessel
anywhere near steam point without a relief valve on it just sounds entirely too
much like suicide to me.

Thanks for any help guys!

>>Go-Kart drive chain is the same roller diameter and 7.774mm pitch as 219H,
>>but is much heavier in the side-plates.
>Maybe because BS05 is 8mm pitch?


First thing that crossed my mind was that the "05" was an old
British standard that referred to pitch in 1/16ths - i.e. - 5/16"
( 7.938mm ).   However, I can't find any reference to support
this theory.

I've asked the question many times but never got an answer, if
anyone has any idea how the bizarre 7.774mm pitch came about,
I'd be interested to hear it.   It's not imperial ( neither fraction nor
in thou ), and certainly not metric, pretty well everything in
engineering has a historical reason; but this one has me mystified.



Cheers             IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

hi charlie,

Im pretty sure the engine would turn over with the stock starter with the plug
removed because even with my own hands i could easily rotate the crankshaft
through the pulley,PROVIDED, the plug is removed ; )

--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Charles Finney <finneys@...> wrote:
>
> Will the kickstart turn the unit over with the plug removed?  If not, a
> remote starter will likely be an eye opener.
>
> Charlie in Iowa
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:40 PM, The Hirzel Office <office@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >   It�s a four stroke parallel twin, 650 cc. And it has about 13.5:1
> > compression. The stock starter has no problems turning it over, although it
> > does use up the battery quite quickly. Powering a starter motor with 24V is
> > not something I would like to try. It will work for a short time only, I
> > suspect.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > yup the video seems uneventful..is it a 2 stroke engine? mine is a 4 stroke
> > scooter with lots of compression, and the stock starter can't turn over the
> > thing even using fully charged automotive batteries. But I'm not surprised
> > of it, having a CR of 8.2:1 in its stock form, Yamaha just probably popped
> > in their smallish starters they could grab on.
> >
> > while we're at it, what would probably happen if I connected in series 2
> > automotive batteries and try starting the scoot with the higher voltage?
> > would the stock starter just "pffft" in a blink like 110 VCR's plugged on to
> > 220 outlets or would it probably turn over and eventually disintegrate?
> > hehehe
> >
> > --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com <mc-engine%40yahoogroups.com>, "The
> > Hirzel Office" <office@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yep, that's me. I admit the first time I used it, it was with some
> > > trepidation. I prepared as well as I could, bracing my arms against my
> > bent
> > > legs, ready to jump out of harm's way. I was completely shocked when
> > > virtually nothing happened, except the bike started up instantly. It a
> > > complete non-event. Now, that I am used to it, it's second nature and I
> > have
> > > never had any "moments" with it. I'll happily supply better pictures of
> > it.
> > > It's not a difficult thing to build. I just used all the original gears
> > and
> > > starter, and replicated how it was on the bike.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ariel <satanael21@
<mailto:satanael21%40yahoo.com<satanael21%2540yahoo.com>>
> > > Tue, 10 Nov
> > > 2009 14:09:34
> > > >But i'm quite hesitant of breaking an arm or at least some fingers if
> > > >I'd go for the "totally portable/handy" route that's lingering on my
> > > >mind....
> > >
> > > Ah. Found it.
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s-nrtiqoiA
> > >
> > > Felix (who's on this list) built one.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
> > > Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
> > > Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
> > > Next Shopping Mall 75 Miles
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I've seen KZ1000 Kawasaki cam chains listed as being both 219H as on
many older Honda twins and BS05. I've got some dimensions for 219H
but I can't find anything on a BS05 chain.

Go-Kart drive chain is the same roller diameter and 7.774mm pitch as 219H,
but is much heavier in the side-plates.
I have heard people advise against using Go-Kart chain in engines though,
not sure of the reason.
Cheers IAN

>I've seen KZ1000 Kawasaki cam chains listed as being both 219H as on
>many older Honda twins and BS05. I've got some dimensions for 219H
>but I can't find anything on a BS05 chain.


Go-Kart drive chain is the same roller diameter and 7.774mm pitch as 219H,
but is much heavier in the side-plates.

I have heard people advise against using Go-Kart chain in engines though,
not sure of the reason.



Cheers                 IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

Does anyone know what the difference is?

I've seen KZ1000 Kawasaki cam chains listed as being both 219H as on
many older Honda twins and BS05.  I've got some dimensions for 219H
but I can't find anything on a BS05 chain.  If people can run either one
on the same sprockets I'm thinking that perhaps the BS05 is a thicker
side plate as it would seem like it has to be something that doesn't
directly interface with the sprocket, like roller OD or pitch.

cheers,
Michael

>The new sleeve is inserted into the barrel and then the port pattern
>is etched into the sleeve using acid. The sleeve is then removed and
>cut to shape.
>
>Can anyone shed light on this process or the acid ?


You would have to avoid most acids ( sulphuric, hydrochloric etc ) they
would attack the alloy casting much more aggressively than the cast iron.

Phosphoric maybe ?  ( But don't take that as a recommendation )



Cheers             IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

I bought all of my 2-smoke sleeves from LA Sleeve in California and they came
with the ports milled into the sleeve.  All I did was install them with the
ports lined up and did the finish to the ports with a small grinder.

John Mead

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, marshengnz <helen.wallace@...> wrote:

> From: marshengnz <helen.wallace@...>
> Subject: Marking Sleevess for  2 Strokes
> To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 7:35 PM
> I read somewhere many years ago about
> this process. The new sleeve is inserted into the barrel and
> then the port pattern is etched into the sleeve using
> acid.  The sleeve is then removed and cut to shape.
>
> Can anyone shed light on this process or the acid ?
>
> Cheers Wallace
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     mc-engine-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

I read somewhere many years ago about this process. The new sleeve is inserted
into the barrel and then the port pattern is etched into the sleeve using acid. 
The sleeve is then removed and cut to shape.

Can anyone shed light on this process or the acid ?

Cheers Wallace

yup the video seems uneventful..is it a 2 stroke engine? mine is a 4 stroke
scooter with lots of compression, and the stock starter can't turn over the
thing even using fully charged automotive batteries. But I'm not surprised of
it, having a CR of 8.2:1 in its stock form, Yamaha just probably popped in their
smallish starters they could grab on.

while we're at it, what would probably happen if I connected in series 2
automotive batteries and try starting the scoot with the higher voltage? would
the stock starter just "pffft" in a blink like 110 VCR's plugged on to 220
outlets or would it probably turn over and eventually disintegrate? hehehe

--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "The Hirzel Office" <office@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yep, that's me. I admit the first time I used it, it was with some
> trepidation. I prepared as well as I could, bracing my arms against my bent
> legs, ready to jump out of harm's way. I was completely shocked when
> virtually nothing happened, except the bike started up instantly. It a
> complete non-event. Now, that I am used to it, it's second nature and I have
> never had any "moments" with it. I'll happily supply better pictures of it.
> It's not a difficult thing to build. I just used all the original gears and
> starter, and replicated how it was on the bike.
>
>
>
> ariel <satanael21@... <mailto:satanael21%40yahoo.com> > Tue, 10 Nov
> 2009 14:09:34
> >But i'm quite hesitant of breaking an arm or at least some fingers if
> >I'd go for the "totally portable/handy" route that's lingering on my
> >mind....
>
> Ah. Found it.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s-nrtiqoiA
>
> Felix (who's on this list) built one.
>
> --
> Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
> Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
> Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
> Next Shopping Mall 75 Miles
>

that's what exactly i'm talking about...however this route is still possible if
some kind of a fixture or stand is holding the external starter in place

--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Julian Bond <julian_bond@...> wrote:
>
> ariel <satanael21@...> Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:09:34
> >But i'm quite hesitant of breaking an arm or at least some fingers if
> >I'd go for the "totally portable/handy" route that's lingering on my
> >mind....
>
> Ah. Found it.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s-nrtiqoiA
>
> Felix (who's on this list) built one.
>
> --
> Julian Bond  E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
> Webmaster:          http://www.ecademy.com/      T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
> Personal WebLog:    http://www.voidstar.com/     skype:julian.bond?chat
>                       Next Shopping Mall 75 Miles
>

hi Dan,

its a 4 stroke scooter. I haven't checked the compression pressure just yet.
maybe i'll try using the kickstart later to check what pressure i'm at. thanks
for the heads up!


ariel

--- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Danny Whitfield <eco.usa@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:09 AM, ariel <satanael21@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > hi guys...
> >
> > we built a drag bike out of a 110cc scooter with CVT tranny. we bored and
> > stroked it to its gut and now the compression is quite high enough, the
> > problem now is how to start the "beast". the kick start lever is not an
> > option (mechanism directly coupled to crankshaft & no reduction what so
> > ever). other guys here replaces the stock electric start with so called
> > "racing starter" I suppose its a high torque kind.
> >
> > I was hoping to get rid of the starter all together to save weight and my
> > thoughts on how to start the bike is to use a bigger starter like those of
> > Honda 360's and Honda VT250's since I have a couple of those lying around. I
> > also have automotive types of starters. what I'm thinking of now is
> > converting one of those into portable type of starter just like the once
> > used on some of PRO drag racers and circuit junkies. But i'm quite hesitant
> > of breaking an arm or at least some fingers if I'd go for the "totally
> > portable/handy" route that's lingering on my mind....
> >
> > any thoughts????
> >
> Yes, what compression gauge reading are you getting?
>
> It is possible to over do it and gain power by reducing comp.
>
> Is this a 4stroke or 2stroke?
>
> Dan Whitfield
>
> >
> >
> >
>

ariel <satanael21@...> Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:09:34
>But i'm quite hesitant of breaking an arm or at least some fingers if
>I'd go for the "totally portable/handy" route that's lingering on my
>mind....

Ah. Found it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s-nrtiqoiA

Felix (who's on this list) built one.

--
Julian Bond  E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster:          http://www.ecademy.com/      T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog:    http://www.voidstar.com/     skype:julian.bond?chat
                       Next Shopping Mall 75 Miles

a friend starts his RS125 this way, so I can't take credit.

Jim Schneider wrote:
> HA!HA!  I think I have seen it done!

big cordless drill?

ariel wrote:

> any thoughts????
>
>

hi guys...

we built a drag bike out of a 110cc scooter with CVT tranny. we bored and
stroked it to its gut and now the compression is quite high enough, the problem
now is how to start the "beast". the kick start lever is not an option
(mechanism directly coupled to crankshaft & no reduction what so ever). other
guys here replaces the stock electric start with so called "racing starter" I
suppose its a high torque kind.

I was hoping to get rid of the starter all together to save weight and my
thoughts on how to start the bike is to use a bigger starter like those of Honda
360's and Honda VT250's since I have a couple of those lying around. I also have
automotive types of starters. what I'm thinking of now is converting one of
those into portable type of starter just like the once used on some of PRO drag
racers and circuit junkies. But i'm quite hesitant of breaking an arm or at
least some fingers if I'd go for the "totally portable/handy" route that's
lingering on my mind....

any thoughts????

There will be formulas as the Modeling people will have used them, but they are
complex.

They have to take into account, valve springs, inertia, valve acceleration,
valve and retainer weight and it is all related to RPM.
The calculations are complex and that's why valve simulation programs start at
$5000.

The best option is to use known values.

Eg a newer Honda revs to 15000. If you are using the valves and springs in
another bike with a mild cam, and only revs to 10000, you are probably ok.


Need to keep in mind that springs can resonate and that is another whole story.

See Youtube for high speed photography of valve in action

Cheers Wallace



> Is there a formula that results into a minimal spring pressure that relates
> intake charge pressure, cam lift/duration, rpm,  valve weight, etc.?

We needed a new press so this one does it all. It will do up to 25 tons.

The scale I have goes to 61 KG, about 125lb. More than enough for setting seat
pressures. Although messy, you can change the scale by using a lever system, 2:1
3:1 etc.

I also have another recycled transducer that goes up to 2500 lb from a pallet
scale. I used another fish scale electronic box and wired the 2500lb transducer
into it, calibrated the scale it away it went.

Cheers Wallace

I have added a photo of my valve spring pressure press to the Electronic album
in the photos.

We made the press as I needed a shaft/piston that did not rotate for the digital
vernier. The shaft holding the piston is a D shape and fits into a D ring so it
can't rotate. I radiused the shaft corners and used an Oring and it works great.

The hydraulic pump is from an old 24 volt vehicle wheelchair hoist and the
controller is recycled from a electric wheelchair. It helps to have friends in
the right places.

Cheers Wallace