Jerry Pohorsky responded recently pointing out the costs to the auto

makers of switching to electric power, in the sense that BEVs and

maybe PHEVs would be somewhat less costly to maintain (fewer moving

parts, fewer repairs), but I can't find his post just this moment.



In any event, I think it's time that one of us do a spreadsheet that

really tries to do a credible job of laying out some of the total

costs of ownership over the life of a vehicle, and, additionally, how

costs change with changing fuel costs.



As gasoline creeps up above $3 per gallon (a friend of mine ran into

that price the other day) then we are back at the point where simple

fuel costs are a more visible issue to many people.  If we can

demonstrate not only that there are alternative fuel vehicles which

cost much less to operate per mile, simply on a fuel-cost basis, then

I think that would be interesting.  If we can additionally demonstrate

that over the life of the vehicle there are other costs that are

lowered and that the vehicle will thus be competitively priced for

anyone considering buying it, then I think that also would be

interesting.



I don't have time just right now to work on this, any more than I have

to correct and update my old page here:



http://www.herecomesmongo.com/ae/comptab.html



However, I think it would be worth doing, when one of us has the time,

or worth collecting links to existing good work in this area.

--- In gridable-hybrids@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

> In any event, I think it's time that one of us do a spreadsheet

> that really tries to do a credible job of laying out some of the

> total costs of ownership over the life of a vehicle, and,

> additionally, how costs change with changing fuel costs.



I wonder where the results from the data collected from the batch

of EV's that all the manufacturers produced rescently has gone to?



I seem to recall the EV1 calling for it's first scheduled

maintainance at 100,000 miles, when it needed a coolant flush...



It probably is a difficult pill for dealers to handle, but that does

not mean I think drivers should be paying for inferiour technology.



L8r

  Ryan

My recollection is that SCE, in particular, did a good job of making

some of their RAV4 EV data available... maybe not the full bit, but

enough to get an excellent idea of real-world kWh-per-mile.  I think I

went out of my way at one point to try to preserve some of what they

had made available.  Let me see if I can find the link.





Here is some of their data, though not quite what I had in mind, as to

their data across 100 or 200 vehicles:



http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MGU1RIH0Bbo9PSxy3Tuz59PEK9nlVZKqTcQVw4I3G9KmbfXgLHb\

IcYp94bmbEsjvtR_a-7PYg0CkUAbeW6WP/sce-rav4ev-100k.pdf



Also S-10 Lead:



http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MGU1ROpuG1k9PSxypljmmPxQd4hzRL7BXO_pZfD-ccBH7uB5E8J\

iwr8gl3GK2h6LHkT41WKlR5WrKoJYft_F/s10Report.pdf



S-10 Nickel:



http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MGU1RGgz5S89PSxys-sDvVS9gigB70lABhXMn8cuwZWH3fGDQYZ\

0g1-X3CPfK0kpnuP8waFKC2e52esVhP7O/s10Report2.pdf



Here is a good overview SCE BEV page:



http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/ElectricTransportation/FleetandTransit/SC\

EsEVFleet.htm





Rummaging around, I am unable to find their discussion of their EV

fleet data, though this interesting page comes up:



http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/ElectricTransportation/Non-roadApplicatio\

n/Forklifts.htm



On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:58:49 -0000, you wrote:



>--- In gridable-hybrids@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

>> In any event, I think it's time that one of us do a spreadsheet

>> that really tries to do a credible job of laying out some of the

>> total costs of ownership over the life of a vehicle, and,

>> additionally, how costs change with changing fuel costs.

>

>I wonder where the results from the data collected from the batch

>of EV's that all the manufacturers produced rescently has gone to?

>

>I seem to recall the EV1 calling for it's first scheduled

>maintainance at 100,000 miles, when it needed a coolant flush...

>

>It probably is a difficult pill for dealers to handle, but that does

>not mean I think drivers should be paying for inferiour technology.

>

>L8r

> Ryan

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

--- In gridable-hybrids@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

...

> In any event, I think it's time that one of us do a spreadsheet

> that really tries to do a credible job of laying out some of the

> total costs of ownership over the life of a vehicle, and,

> additionally, how costs change with changing fuel costs...



This is a very good idea, and I can offer the records from one 2001

Prius as a comparison.



Category.......... cents per mile

Insurance......... 6.2

Fuel (@$2.5/g).... 5.6

DIY maint (est)... 2.5

Registration...... 1.3



Based on selling the vehicle at 5 yrs/75k miles, the purchase +

finance - resale value adds 21.3 cents/mi for a total of 36.9.  My

intention instead is to drive it for 300k miles (with no resale),

which would reduce the total to 25.3.  Since I started buying

gasoline in 2001 (sometimes for less than $1/g), I am actually a bit

below that now.  But as pointed out, this is simple to vary in a

spreadsheet format.



Vehicle maintenance as performed by a dealer could be above 3

cents/mi; in fact I would not care to speculate at the ceiling.  But

3 does allow for tires suspension components brakes, etc. at likely

intervals, and even replacing the HV battery and PSD could be

accomodated over the long term.



I do not know that an EV or PHEV could be purchased for appreciably

less.  I do think that the category savings (vs. hybrid) would be in

fuel not maintenance, especially at higher future fuel prices.



I should like to also consider "external costs" but putting a dollar

cost on pollutant emissions does not seem straightforward. Costs of

greenhouse gas emissions is similarly controversial, but at least

there are "CO2 trading" costs of $65 or so per ton to work with.



Anyway, my position is that hybrids are cost-effective compared to

conventional, low-mpg vehicles, with the fuel cost and slightly

reduced maint costs more than offsetting the initial purchase price

differential.  Whether EVs and PHEV do still better, is for the

experts here at gridable to say.



DAS

I think such record keeping and spreadsheet making, and

algorhythm-debating is a labor of love and you have made an excellent

start.'



On externalities, I think as long as you stay honest and upfront with

people as to how you are defining TCO, that is the main thing.  I

would not personally lump those costs in with TCO, but would

separately make a note that many of us activists believe that part of

our overall goal is to have such costs be brought in (such as, for

example, if taxes were added to sale of non-renewable hydrocarbons in

an attempt to recoup environmental damages,.. then at that point this

would show up in fuel costs, for some but not all fuels).



I disagree with only your last part about being deferential to others,

or leaving too much up to them.  Yes, of course, let us remain open to

ideas and improving our thoughts.  Yet, my experience of these matters

is: do your own thing, and be open to modification if some of the

criticisms ring true.









On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 16:58:00 -0000, you wrote:



>--- In gridable-hybrids@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

>...

>> In any event, I think it's time that one of us do a spreadsheet

>> that really tries to do a credible job of laying out some of the

>> total costs of ownership over the life of a vehicle, and,

>> additionally, how costs change with changing fuel costs...

>

>This is a very good idea, and I can offer the records from one 2001

>Prius as a comparison.

>

>Category.......... cents per mile

>Insurance......... 6.2

>Fuel (@$2.5/g).... 5.6

>DIY maint (est)... 2.5

>Registration...... 1.3

>

>Based on selling the vehicle at 5 yrs/75k miles, the purchase +

>finance - resale value adds 21.3 cents/mi for a total of 36.9.  My

>intention instead is to drive it for 300k miles (with no resale),

>which would reduce the total to 25.3.  Since I started buying

>gasoline in 2001 (sometimes for less than $1/g), I am actually a bit

>below that now.  But as pointed out, this is simple to vary in a

>spreadsheet format.

>

>Vehicle maintenance as performed by a dealer could be above 3

>cents/mi; in fact I would not care to speculate at the ceiling.  But

>3 does allow for tires suspension components brakes, etc. at likely

>intervals, and even replacing the HV battery and PSD could be

>accomodated over the long term.

>

>I do not know that an EV or PHEV could be purchased for appreciably

>less.  I do think that the category savings (vs. hybrid) would be in

>fuel not maintenance, especially at higher future fuel prices.

>

>I should like to also consider "external costs" but putting a dollar

>cost on pollutant emissions does not seem straightforward. Costs of

>greenhouse gas emissions is similarly controversial, but at least

>there are "CO2 trading" costs of $65 or so per ton to work with.

>

>Anyway, my position is that hybrids are cost-effective compared to

>conventional, low-mpg vehicles, with the fuel cost and slightly

>reduced maint costs more than offsetting the initial purchase price

>differential.  Whether EVs and PHEV do still better, is for the

>experts here at gridable to say.

>

>DAS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>