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A PHEV heresy   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #2363 of 3558 |
I do not have strong credentials to address this group, but there is
an issue on my mind that may be worth discussing here. Probably we
can all agree on the following points: (1) HEVs with small traction
batteries (Toyota, Honda, etc.) substantially reduce gasoline
consumption and CO2 emission. (2) PHEVs (such as are under active
consideration here) would provide an additional substantial
improvement. (3) For the moment at least, suitable traction
batteries are expensive and of limited availability.

My assumptions are that: (1) conventional ICE-only vehicles achieve
30 mpg, (2) HEVs with their modern transmissions, electronic control
systems, and a "unit traction battery" achieve 50 mpg, and (3) PHEVs
with similar systems and a number of "unit traction batteries"
achieve 150 mpg in their overall driving cycle. These values are
chosen to make a particular point, and are not meant to be definitive.

If vehicles travel 12,000 miles/year and gasoline casts $2.50/gallon,
each HEV saves 160 gallons of gasoline, 3200 pounds CO2 emissions,
and $400, compared to the ICE vehicle. Each PHEV saves the same
amounts, compared to the HEV. But, finally making my point, it does
not do so with one additional "unit traction battery". The PHEV
requires several additional betteries. Experts here would know
better than I, but I suppose that the number would be at least three
additional.

Based on the initial assumption that such batteries are in limited
supply, I argue that they will do more to reduce gasoline consumption
and CO2 production if deployed singly in HEVs, rather than multiply
in a correspondingly smaller number of PHEVs.

I do not argue this to oppose active research into PHEVs, advanced
battery technology, or anything of the sort. I fully appreciate that
PHEVs operating in polluted urban environments would offer important
advantages compared to HEVs. Rather, that HEVs appear at present to
be more efficient in reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emission, per
battery, than PHEVs would be.

Ideally, HEVs will be manufactured as rapidly as possible, AND be
designed with the potential to be converted into PHEVs when the cost
and supply bottlenecks of suitable batteries eases.

To simplify matters, I have ignored related issues of the cost and
potential CO2 emissions of the "external" electricity required for
PHEVs, and any difficulty in externally recharging the batteries.
My point is that HEVs appear to be a more "battery-efficient" way to
go, even without considering those issues.

DAS







Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:19 am

tochatihu
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Message #2363 of 3558 |
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I do not have strong credentials to address this group, but there is an issue on my mind that may be worth discussing here. Probably we can all agree on the...
Doug Schaefer
tochatihu
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Mar 23, 2006
3:19 am

I think I understand your point and suspect that in some ways you are probably correct. It's an interesting way of looking at battery usage and mileage...
Lee Dekker
heprv
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Mar 23, 2006
4:58 am

The PHEV saves more than the HEV that can't plug in, because some of the PHEV travel comes from off-peak electric, not gasoline. Depending on how far you drive...
doug korthof
live_oil_free
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Mar 23, 2006
5:02 am

Well said, and to that I just have to take a sigh of relief that Lithium is comming along nicely and hope it can avoid the kind of conflicts of interest that...
d0li0
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Mar 23, 2006
7:03 am

I'm not familiar with the "patent issues" with NiMH except for the discussion in this group. A few questons for this group: Will these patents on NiMH...
berryjeffrey
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Mar 23, 2006
1:44 pm

The patent rights are controlled by Chevron, which acquired them from the merger with Texaco. Texaco got them from GM, which foolishly sold them off. Thus,...
doug korthof
live_oil_free
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Mar 23, 2006
10:47 pm

... Cobasys's parent, Energy Conversion Devices (Nasdaq:ENER), says this in their most recent 10-K: "In July 2004, we, Ovonic Battery, Cobasys, Matsushita...
doggydogworld
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Mar 29, 2006
2:24 pm

_____ From: gridable-hybrids@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gridable-hybrids@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of doug korthof Sent: 23 March 2006 05:03 To:...
Malcolm Scott
mallyscott
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Mar 23, 2006
9:35 am

... <live_oil_free@...> wrote: ... drive less than 90 miles per day, would burn only one gallon of gasoline for each 500 miles travelled, using a combination...
Doug Schaefer
tochatihu
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Mar 23, 2006
6:06 pm

Serial HEV/PHEV technology is far more versatile than the alternate "hybrid" method of inserting a motor in between a standard ICE and transmission (a la Honda...
Bruce Bostwick
n5vb
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Mar 24, 2006
8:51 am

Practical experience backs up your analysis. The Toyota RAV4-EV draws at most 28 kW (driving at 80 mph for one hour uses 28 kWh); the RAV4-EV is not the most...
doug korthof
live_oil_free
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Mar 25, 2006
9:01 pm

Absolutely, current hybrid conversions to PHEVs are not as ideal as would be some simple series hybrids done by a manufacturer. Just as their rescent batch of...
d0li0
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Mar 26, 2006
2:51 am

Correct, essentially the traction battery is a peak leveler that supplies the peak power to get the car up to speed. The ICE/genset then delivers power at a...
Bruce Bostwick
n5vb
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Mar 29, 2006
2:26 pm

... ICE/genset ... profile, ... acid ... would ... That's ... the ... hp ... generator ... How did driving a sustained 80 mph forever become the goal of a...
Del
dkroupa
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Mar 30, 2006
9:44 am

... 80mph is just a value with a nice 20mph buffer above the 60mph, or a 10mph buffer for 70mph freeways. I think the groups goal is plugging in, high...
d0li0
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Mar 30, 2006
9:14 pm

Ryan has hit the nail on the head. There's a break-even speed at which your ICE/genset will barely maintain the charge in the traction battery, and while you...
Bruce Bostwick
n5vb
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Mar 31, 2006
10:15 am

I think the ultimate goal should be to replace ICE-only technology as completely as possible, because everyone here knows what's wrong with not making that...
Bruce Bostwick
n5vb
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Mar 31, 2006
10:16 am

It didn't. 80 mph is an arbitrary but practical benchmark for highway-capable EV's -- being able to sustain 80 mph means your car will be practical to drive...
Bruce Bostwick
n5vb
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Mar 31, 2006
10:11 am

... alternate ... ICE/ ... drag) ... at ... driven ... on ... on ... be ... an ... drivetrain. ... road ... drive ... properly. ... inappropriately ... with ...
Del
dkroupa
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Mar 29, 2006
2:25 pm

Thanks Del, and the group at large. I am so convinced of the value of reducing per-mile vehicle fuel costs, that I was quite reluctant to throw any cold water...
Doug Schaefer
tochatihu
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Mar 29, 2006
4:20 pm

Reducing per mile vehicle fuel costs are certainly very important. They apply directly to our economy, our security, our environment and most importantly to...
Lee Dekker
heprv
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Mar 29, 2006
5:20 pm

One of the reasons I focus on miles-per-Unit-Energy is that eventually all energy should be counted as precious, and all energy costs money and effort to...
murdoch
murdoch_1998
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Mar 29, 2006
10:37 pm

Two words: Question Combustion. I would agree and like to add that the efficiency disparity between electric (motors, controllers, storage, and distribution)...
d0li0
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Mar 30, 2006
8:54 am

I am reposting this, as it did not appear to get through before. ... Ryan: I did so about five years ago: http://www.herecomesmongo.com/ae/comptab.html ...
murdoch
murdoch_1998
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Mar 31, 2006
4:59 am

http://www.jwiwood.com/faq/conversion.html Note that diesel has a somewhat greater energy content per gallon than gasoline, which is consistent with larger...
Bruce Bostwick
n5vb
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Mar 31, 2006
10:21 am

... The matter is further complicated because measuring a gallon of diesel or gasoline can be somewhat problematic. I think it is atmsopheric pressure ...
murdoch
murdoch_1998
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Mar 31, 2006
5:29 pm

... Ryan: I did so about five years ago: http://www.herecomesmongo.com/ae/comptab.html However, I must issue a caveat that did not come with the original, ...
murdoch
murdoch_1998
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Mar 31, 2006
8:31 pm

"MPG" is a confusing term, one that I think could even be deliberately so. The only way to unwind the confusion I've found is to consider a "gallon of...
Bruce Bostwick
n5vb
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Mar 30, 2006
9:35 am

Honda's IMA is not the only possible parallel hybrid design. A parallel (or mixed) hybrid can have an ICE every bit as simple as and even smaller than a pure...
doggydogworld
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Mar 29, 2006
2:25 pm
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