I talked to the guy in charge of Aerorider at a bike show a few years ago.  He
is really nice, and SMART!  I'll bet he can answer any of your questions.

- Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, LSekura@... <LSekura@...> wrote:

From: LSekura@... <LSekura@...>
Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Pedal car
To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 6:52 AM

















Hi, Forbes,



Thank you so much! And I never felt you were putting down my lack of

knowledge; I thought you were giving me too much credit for being more

knowledgeable than I was. Great vehicle. I checked the websites out, and
they're

showing price lists and dealerships. But maybe this is old or misleading,

since you said they're not really available - or maybe you meant in the US.





I figured it wouldn't hurt to email one of the dealerships for the

Aerorider in the Netherlands, asking about the possibility of getting one
shipped

over here, along with any of their awareness of US street laws on these. I

should at least get some kind of "forecast" information. Will let you

know what they say if it's anything about being able to get one very soon, and

without doubling the price of the vehicle.



Thanks again for the info, Forbes. I signed on to the Yahoo group also.



The one shortcoming of the Aerorider is that I couldn't travel to the

field for headwater stream studies (50 miles one-way at times) or to PA for

family (even longer). But this would work perfectly for school, work, and

local travel as my daily car. Better range than the 40-mile plug-ins, and

best I could hope for right now. Good suggestion. If you want to start

building your own, let me know and maybe I can contribute.



Linda







In a message dated 7/2/2009 6:15:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

diarmaede@yahoo. com writes:



Hi Linda,



Now I feel bad if I sounded like I was condemning your lack of knowledge.

If that is the case, please accept my apologies. If I had a nickel for

everything I knew nothing about, I'd be a very wealthy man.



To answer some of your questions:



- The car is certainly "Not Real" at this point. You cannot buy them,

and they do not appear to be in production. They appear to have made a few

shells which may be functional vehicles or may not be. They also appear to

have spent A LOT of time generating computer images showing shiny vehicles

which don not exist yet. At this point, I would characterize it as an

interesting idea that probably faces many financial and technical hurdles

before it becomes real. I am also guessing that any numbers they post about

performance and fuel mileage are (optimistic) estimates at this point. I

know how that works... I've been in similar positions before. You have an

idea and you're trying to get people excited about it, so you tell them all

the wonderful things your product COULD do if everything went perfectly.

Trouble is that things don't generally go perfectly.



- I remain skeptical about the human power input for a few reasons. They

say this will be a 600 pound car. It looks fairly aerodynamic, but it is

still going to take at least 4 or 5 horsepower to keep it cruising at

highway speeds, I'll bet (I could run some numbers through an automotive

performance program I wrote, if anyone wants a better estimate). A human on a

bicycle - one who is in very good shape - puts out about 1/4 of a horsepower.

The generation method they describe is going to be, at most, about 80%

efficient, so we would be looking at somewhere around 0.2hp worth of human

contribution to the overall power picture. That's not a lot and would not

have much of an effect on the speed or the range of the vehicle.



Also, that shell looks pretty effective at keeping the air flowing over

the vehicle in an aerodynamic manner, as I mentioned. That means that it

will also be pretty effective at keeping the air from circulating around the

human doing the pedaling. I'm guessing it would get pretty hot and sweaty

in there pretty darn quickly.



My ideal vehicle sounds like it would be a lot like your ideal vehicle -

fast enough to be practical, yet light and efficient enough to be very

"green." At this point, my ideal vehicle looks a lot like this one:



_http://www.aeroride http://wwhttp: //wwwhttp_

(http://www.aeroride r.com/en/ aerorider. html)



but it has a somewhat bigger motor and a bit more battery storage, so it

can go faster and farther (further?). Note that the aerorider has the

electric drive and the human drive in parallel. Both drive the same chain

directly, and I believe you could drive the vehicle via human power or electric

power (or both).



Of course, that aerorider is not available either. Grumble, grumble. One

of these days I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and build

something like that on my own.



In the meantime, you can talk to these fine folks:



_http://tech. http://tech. http://techttp: //tech._

(http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ power-assist/)



People on that list know everything there is to know about human/electric

hybrids, and they can tell you what is available right now and how much it

costs.



Cheers,



Forbes



- Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA



--- On Thu, 7/2/09, _LSekura@aol. LSe_ (mailto:LSekura@aol. com)

<_LSekura@aol. LSe_ (mailto:LSekura@aol. com) > wrote:



From: _LSekura@aol. LSe_ (mailto:LSekura@aol. com) <_LSekura@aol. LSe_

(mailto:LSekura@aol. com) >

Subject: Re: [future-fuels- Subject: Re: [futur

To: _future-fuels- future-fuels- future-fuelsfut_

(mailto:future-fuels- and-vehicles@ yahoogroups. com)

Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 2:26 PM



Thanks for all of the responses.? I've read through all of them several

times and I'm still a little confused.? So sorry.? If you haven't lost

patience with me, please bear with me for one more go-thru.? You all know so
much

more about these things than I do, and I'm getting lost in some of the

terminology. ? Let me through out some?info, and the questions I'm getting at:



From what I've read, the car is a gas-electric hybrid, and the battery is

charged by solar and/or pedals.? This is one of the reasons I was looking

for a "pedal car" in the first place - to extend the range of batteries, so

as not to use the gas as much.? This is probably where their claim of 150

mpg comes from.? And I guess this is similar to the Taurus and other

vehicles that can use ethanol instead of gas, but that's not what's attracting
me.



If my goal is to have the most non-fossil fuel and high-mileage vehicle

that can go long distances, this appeared to be the only choice.? I don't

know of another car that gets 150 mpg.? Maybe I can ask them if it's possible

to charge it enough on the fly that no gas is used.? Probably not the case.



Also, I like the idea of being able to exercise while driving long

distances, instead of just sitting there letting my behind spread, and trying
to

find time to get to the gym during precious non-driving hours.



Questions:



Are your responses telling me that this car is probably not "for real"??

Or are you telling me that the pedaling wouldn't really add much - for

example, pedaling would only provide an extra 2 minutes worth of power to the

battery over the span?of?a 2-hour trip??



Also, if you've read that I could additionally potentially use pedal power

to assist in moving the wheels directly, I think I'm hearing from you that

this is either impossible or might cause damage-?? If it's inefficient, it

wouldn't matter, since it would be my own human exercise that is "wasted"

and not extra fossil fuels - as long as I'm still getting 150 mpg.? No???

Again, I apologize for my ignorance.



Thanks,



Linda



-----Original Message-----



From: murdoch <murdoch@herecomesm murdoch@herec>



To: future-fuels- and-vehicles@ yahoogroups. com



Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 2:06 pm



Subject: Re: [future-fuels- and-vehicles] Re: Pedal car



Then again, as I think about it, it seems to me an interesting



question: maybe it would be easier than I realize (with some ingenious



transmission or something?) to integrate mechanical drive power from a



variety of (geared?) bicycles and an IC driveshaft and also from a



battery, into one seemless controllable mechanical drive system for a



complex hybrid? I don't know. At first glance, it seems to me



possibly easier to deal with the power as "fungible" (misuse of the



word?) electricity, but I should keep an open mind.



[Default] On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:36:11 -0600, murdoch



<murdoch@herecomesm murdoch@h> wrote:



>[Default] On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:42:10 -0000, "Forbes Bagatelle-Black"



><diarmaede@ diarmaede@ > wrote:



>



>>--- In future-fuels- and-vehicles@ yahoogroups. com, LSekura@... wrote:



>>>



>>> How can you pedal at 80 miles per hour?



>>



>>_http://www.canosoar _ (http://www.canosoar /) us.com/08LSRbicy

cle/LSR%20Bike01 .htm



>>



>>> And please do tell me if I'm wrong



>>



>>As I said, it sounds like a fun project, just not the most efficient use

of human power input to a drive system.



>



>In this project it might be the most efficient way to go. If there is



>no mechanical system built into the vehicle to power the wheels, and



>if you introduce pedals pushing mechanical gearing and ask how that



>power can be transferred to wheels that are already being driven, then



>I think you have to either introduce one of two inefficiencies:



>



>1. Add a way to drive the wheels mechanically, and from multiple



>pedal systems, each going at a different rate, and all the while not



>disrupting the flow of power from the electro-mechanical system.



>



>2. Convert the mechanical power of the pedal power to electric charge



>and go from there.



>



>In the vehicle in question, I'm not sure we have enough information to



>declare that it is already set up as a series hybrid. It sounds like



>it might be more efficient (in the sense of weight and complexity,



>though I'm not sure about energy) to do so.



>



>They do not actually say that they make plug power available. They



>discuss solar power, an IC engine powered by either of two fuels, and



>pedal power. So, it is a three or four fuel vehicle, and is an



>extreme or different car in other ways, including its light weight and



>very low-seeming price.



>



>So, in this narrow case, it may be a bit better candidate for series



>hybrid than you have at first estimated.



>



>It's possible that they have set up this vehicle with a mechanical



>transmission of power. In that case, I'd still have to question if it



>would be inefficient (or overly complex?) to take the pedal power from



>different pedals and get it to the wheels already receiving power from



>an engine and from the sun, or whether the pedal power could simply go



>into the batteries that have to be onboard for the solar power anyway.



>



>Mechanical transmission of power does indeed seem to be efficient and



>the transfer of power from human legs to bicycle wheels seems to be



>one of the most efficient ways for people to travel, and I am not



>trying to get in the way of bringing out these points. It just seemed



>to me when Linda brought up this vehicle that the complexity of the



>thing and-or the possible transmission methods might logically lead to



>pedaling for electric charge rather than for straightforward



>bicycling.



>



>



>



>> Perhaps efficiency is not the most important element of the equation

here.



>>



>>Cheers,



>>



>>Forbes



>>



>>



>>



>>---------- --------- --------- --------



>>



>>Yahoo! Groups Links



>>



>>



>>



>



>



>----------- --------- --------- -------



>



>Yahoo! Groups Links



>



>



>



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