Hi, Forbes,

Thank you so much! And I never felt you were putting down my lack of
knowledge; I thought you were giving me too much credit for being more
knowledgeable than I was. Great vehicle. I checked the websites out, and
they're
showing price lists and dealerships. But maybe this is old or misleading,
since you said they're not really available - or maybe you meant in the US.


I figured it wouldn't hurt to email one of the dealerships for the
Aerorider in the Netherlands, asking about the possibility of getting one
shipped
over here, along with any of their awareness of US street laws on these. I
should at least get some kind of "forecast" information. Will let you
know what they say if it's anything about being able to get one very soon, and
without doubling the price of the vehicle.

Thanks again for the info, Forbes. I signed on to the Yahoo group also.

The one shortcoming of the Aerorider is that I couldn't travel to the
field for headwater stream studies (50 miles one-way at times) or to PA for
family (even longer). But this would work perfectly for school, work, and
local travel as my daily car. Better range than the 40-mile plug-ins, and
best I could hope for right now. Good suggestion. If you want to start
building your own, let me know and maybe I can contribute.

Linda



In a message dated 7/2/2009 6:15:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
diarmaede@... writes:





Hi Linda,

Now I feel bad if I sounded like I was condemning your lack of knowledge.
If that is the case, please accept my apologies. If I had a nickel for
everything I knew nothing about, I'd be a very wealthy man.

To answer some of your questions:

- The car is certainly "Not Real" at this point. You cannot buy them,
and they do not appear to be in production. They appear to have made a few
shells which may be functional vehicles or may not be. They also appear to
have spent A LOT of time generating computer images showing shiny vehicles
which don not exist yet. At this point, I would characterize it as an
interesting idea that probably faces many financial and technical hurdles
before it becomes real. I am also guessing that any numbers they post about
performance and fuel mileage are (optimistic) estimates at this point. I
know how that works... I've been in similar positions before. You have an
idea and you're trying to get people excited about it, so you tell them all
the wonderful things your product COULD do if everything went perfectly.
Trouble is that things don't generally go perfectly.

- I remain skeptical about the human power input for a few reasons. They
say this will be a 600 pound car. It looks fairly aerodynamic, but it is
still going to take at least 4 or 5 horsepower to keep it cruising at
highway speeds, I'll bet (I could run some numbers through an automotive
performance program I wrote, if anyone wants a better estimate). A human on a
bicycle - one who is in very good shape - puts out about 1/4 of a horsepower.
The generation method they describe is going to be, at most, about 80%
efficient, so we would be looking at somewhere around 0.2hp worth of human
contribution to the overall power picture. That's not a lot and would not
have much of an effect on the speed or the range of the vehicle.

Also, that shell looks pretty effective at keeping the air flowing over
the vehicle in an aerodynamic manner, as I mentioned. That means that it
will also be pretty effective at keeping the air from circulating around the
human doing the pedaling. I'm guessing it would get pretty hot and sweaty
in there pretty darn quickly.

My ideal vehicle sounds like it would be a lot like your ideal vehicle -
fast enough to be practical, yet light and efficient enough to be very
"green." At this point, my ideal vehicle looks a lot like this one:

_http://www.aeroridehttp://wwhttp://wwwhttp_
(http://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html)

but it has a somewhat bigger motor and a bit more battery storage, so it
can go faster and farther (further?). Note that the aerorider has the
electric drive and the human drive in parallel. Both drive the same chain
directly, and I believe you could drive the vehicle via human power or electric
power (or both).

Of course, that aerorider is not available either. Grumble, grumble. One
of these days I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and build
something like that on my own.

In the meantime, you can talk to these fine folks:

_http://tech.http://tech.http://techttp://tech._
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/)

People on that list know everything there is to know about human/electric
hybrids, and they can tell you what is available right now and how much it
costs.

Cheers,

Forbes

- Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, _LSekura@..._ (mailto:LSekura@...)
<_LSekura@..._ (mailto:LSekura@...) > wrote:

From: _LSekura@..._ (mailto:LSekura@...) <_LSekura@..._
(mailto:LSekura@...) >
Subject: Re: [future-fuels-Subject: Re: [futur
To: _future-fuels-future-fuels-future-fuelsfut_
(mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com)
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 2:26 PM

Thanks for all of the responses.? I've read through all of them several
times and I'm still a little confused.? So sorry.? If you haven't lost
patience with me, please bear with me for one more go-thru.? You all know so
much
more about these things than I do, and I'm getting lost in some of the
terminology. ? Let me through out some?info, and the questions I'm getting at:

From what I've read, the car is a gas-electric hybrid, and the battery is
charged by solar and/or pedals.? This is one of the reasons I was looking
for a "pedal car" in the first place - to extend the range of batteries, so
as not to use the gas as much.? This is probably where their claim of 150
mpg comes from.? And I guess this is similar to the Taurus and other
vehicles that can use ethanol instead of gas, but that's not what's attracting
me.

If my goal is to have the most non-fossil fuel and high-mileage vehicle
that can go long distances, this appeared to be the only choice.? I don't
know of another car that gets 150 mpg.? Maybe I can ask them if it's possible
to charge it enough on the fly that no gas is used.? Probably not the case.

Also, I like the idea of being able to exercise while driving long
distances, instead of just sitting there letting my behind spread, and trying
to
find time to get to the gym during precious non-driving hours.

Questions:

Are your responses telling me that this car is probably not "for real"??
Or are you telling me that the pedaling wouldn't really add much - for
example, pedaling would only provide an extra 2 minutes worth of power to the
battery over the span?of?a 2-hour trip??

Also, if you've read that I could additionally potentially use pedal power
to assist in moving the wheels directly, I think I'm hearing from you that
this is either impossible or might cause damage-?? If it's inefficient, it
wouldn't matter, since it would be my own human exercise that is "wasted"
and not extra fossil fuels - as long as I'm still getting 150 mpg.? No???
Again, I apologize for my ignorance.

Thanks,

Linda

-----Original Message-----

From: murdoch <murdoch@herecomesmmurdoch@herec>

To: future-fuels- and-vehicles@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 2:06 pm

Subject: Re: [future-fuels- and-vehicles] Re: Pedal car

Then again, as I think about it, it seems to me an interesting

question: maybe it would be easier than I realize (with some ingenious

transmission or something?) to integrate mechanical drive power from a

variety of (geared?) bicycles and an IC driveshaft and also from a

battery, into one seemless controllable mechanical drive system for a

complex hybrid? I don't know. At first glance, it seems to me

possibly easier to deal with the power as "fungible" (misuse of the

word?) electricity, but I should keep an open mind.

[Default] On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:36:11 -0600, murdoch

<murdoch@herecomesmmurdoch@h> wrote:

>[Default] On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:42:10 -0000, "Forbes Bagatelle-Black"

><diarmaede@diarmaede@> wrote:

>

>>--- In future-fuels- and-vehicles@ yahoogroups. com, LSekura@... wrote:

>>>

>>> How can you pedal at 80 miles per hour?

>>

>>_http://www.canosoar_ (http://www.canosoar/) us.com/08LSRbicy
cle/LSR%20Bike01 .htm

>>

>>> And please do tell me if I'm wrong

>>

>>As I said, it sounds like a fun project, just not the most efficient use
of human power input to a drive system.

>

>In this project it might be the most efficient way to go. If there is

>no mechanical system built into the vehicle to power the wheels, and

>if you introduce pedals pushing mechanical gearing and ask how that

>power can be transferred to wheels that are already being driven, then

>I think you have to either introduce one of two inefficiencies:

>

>1. Add a way to drive the wheels mechanically, and from multiple

>pedal systems, each going at a different rate, and all the while not

>disrupting the flow of power from the electro-mechanical system.

>

>2. Convert the mechanical power of the pedal power to electric charge

>and go from there.

>

>In the vehicle in question, I'm not sure we have enough information to

>declare that it is already set up as a series hybrid. It sounds like

>it might be more efficient (in the sense of weight and complexity,

>though I'm not sure about energy) to do so.

>

>They do not actually say that they make plug power available. They

>discuss solar power, an IC engine powered by either of two fuels, and

>pedal power. So, it is a three or four fuel vehicle, and is an

>extreme or different car in other ways, including its light weight and

>very low-seeming price.

>

>So, in this narrow case, it may be a bit better candidate for series

>hybrid than you have at first estimated.

>

>It's possible that they have set up this vehicle with a mechanical

>transmission of power. In that case, I'd still have to question if it

>would be inefficient (or overly complex?) to take the pedal power from

>different pedals and get it to the wheels already receiving power from

>an engine and from the sun, or whether the pedal power could simply go

>into the batteries that have to be onboard for the solar power anyway.

>

>Mechanical transmission of power does indeed seem to be efficient and

>the transfer of power from human legs to bicycle wheels seems to be

>one of the most efficient ways for people to travel, and I am not

>trying to get in the way of bringing out these points. It just seemed

>to me when Linda brought up this vehicle that the complexity of the

>thing and-or the possible transmission methods might logically lead to

>pedaling for electric charge rather than for straightforward

>bicycling.

>

>

>

>> Perhaps efficiency is not the most important element of the equation
here.

>>

>>Cheers,

>>

>>Forbes

>>

>>

>>

>>---------- --------- --------- --------

>>

>>Yahoo! Groups Links

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>----------- --------- --------- -------

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

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