Nah, you'd be fine with all that stuff... as long as you didn't turn
on your electric dryer.  <grin>

Actually, seeing as how I've previously charged an eBox using the
30A-240V dryer outlet in my garage (at ~6KW) without blowing out the
power in my neighborhood, it seems that it's probably even safe to use
your dryer.

I fail to see why anyone with an electric stove and/or electric dryer
would not also be able to charge an EV at night.

--Steve


On Dec 1, 2009, at 3:59 PM, Willis Skip Korhonen wrote:

> So if we all had electric appliances and took our showers, turned up
> the heat and  started baking or roasting something in the oven the
> grid would definitely go down. Lets get real tell me the real
> probability !!!!!!!

On Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 12:17:07 PM, Owen Emry wrote:

>> Any ideas on how to address this issue in the short term with several
manufacturers
>> scheduled to start selling EVs in the next two years?

> There is no issue -- fast charging is not on anyone's production roadmap.

Agreed it's a non issue for several reasons:

1.  Fast charging isn't practical for home use for exactly some
of the reasons given.  There isn't enough grid capacity to do it
out at the streets.

2.  Most charge controllers either built into the car or an
offboard charger may not be suited to fast charging, depending on
how they are implemented.  Chargers that use the drive
electronics can do it, but many chargers don't use the drive
electronics.  AC Propulsion's chargers are an exception since
they do use the drive electronics.

3.  Regular charging is fine for overnight use, and doesn't use
much more power than an ordinary home already does, such as with
a 5kw electric clothes dryer.  As such, it doesn't put much more
strain on the grid than using ordinary high powered electric
appliances.

Cheers,

Jeff C.
--
Jeff Chan
mailto:rav4ev@...
http://www.jeffchan.com/

 

> The solution presented by the panel was smart grid technology to
> enable EV chargers to communicate with the grid and distribute the
> charging demand within the existing capacity.

A smarter grid will help make the grid more efficient in general -- not just for EVs.

> However, these technologies are still in development.

As are the cars!

> It seems to me that this will be a significant hurdle to widespread adoption of EVs.

It's only a significant hurdle to "fast charging" which has numerous other hurdles to overcome anyway. Neither the Volt nor the Roadster have any provision (nor need) for fast charging. The Volt, in particular, (if it ever makes it to market) will be a hybrid, and can refuel quickly on the rare occasion when it is required.

> Was this a factor in the difficulties getting the Mini EV chargers installed for
> residential customers?

No, the delays were caused by a supply chain problem relating to the Mini E's charge port connector, and in some cases because of a UL listing snafu.

> Any ideas on how to address this issue in the short term with several manufacturers
> scheduled to start selling EVs in the next two years?

There is no issue -- fast charging is not on anyone's production roadmap.

Quoting Bill Korthof:
> It's my opinion that for most EV charger deployment will take little or no utility preparation. In a few cases, customers
> will upgrade their service entrances. In some other cases, some local utility transformers will need to be upgraded.
> But utilities already have very effective systems in place to deal with load growth---people install big loads like pools,
> hot tubs, air conditioners, and consumer electronics all the time. If there is a substantial jump in the meter readings
> in a localized area, it's very easy (and standard operating procedure) to simply throw a new, bigger transformer on
> the pole, or split a group of feeders and add more transformers. The cost of those upgrades is already built into the
> rate structure.
>
> Utilities have been stringing wires, building substations, connecting transformers, and reading meters for well over
> a hundred years---I see no reasons why they'll have difficulty handling the power for electric cars.

-Owen

> The solution presented by the panel was smart grid technology to
> enable EV chargers to communicate with the grid and distribute the
> charging demand within the existing capacity.

A smarter grid will help make the grid more efficient in general -- not just for
EVs.

> However, these technologies are still in development.

As are the cars!

> It seems to me that this will be a significant hurdle to widespread adoption
of EVs.

It's only a significant hurdle to "fast charging" which has numerous other
hurdles to overcome anyway.  Neither the Volt nor the Roadster have any
provision (nor need) for fast charging.  The Volt, in particular, (if it ever
makes it to market) will be a hybrid, and can refuel quickly on the rare
occasion when it is required.

> Was this a factor in the difficulties getting the Mini EV chargers installed
for
> residential customers?

No, the delays were caused by a supply chain problem relating to the Mini E's
charge port connector, and in some cases because of a UL listing snafu.


> Any ideas on how to address this issue in the short term with several
manufacturers
> scheduled to start selling EVs in the next two years?

There is no issue -- fast charging is not on anyone's production roadmap.

Quoting Bill Korthof:
> It's my opinion that for most EV charger deployment will take little or no
utility preparation. In a few cases, customers
> will upgrade their service entrances. In some other cases, some local utility
transformers will need to be upgraded.
> But utilities already have very effective systems in place to deal with load
growth---people install big loads like pools,
> hot tubs, air conditioners, and consumer electronics all the time. If there is
a substantial jump in the meter readings
> in a localized area, it's very easy (and standard operating procedure) to
simply throw a new, bigger transformer on
> the pole, or split a group of feeders and add more transformers. The cost of
those upgrades is already built into the
> rate structure.
>
> Utilities have been stringing wires, building substations, connecting
transformers, and reading meters for well over
> a hundred years---I see no reasons why they'll have difficulty handling the
power for electric cars.


-Owen

Howdy all,

yesterday I attended a panel discussion on emerging smart grid technologies
sponsored by IEEE Spectrum. One of the speakers, Dr. Farrokh Albuyeh of Open
Access Technology International (OATI), had a slide in his presentation that
showed that fast charging the battery packs of two chevy Volts would exceed the
rated capacity of a typical residential step-down transformer (on top of the
existing evening base load). Same thing for fast charging ONE Tesla Roadster
battery pack.

Chris Knudsen, the Director of the Technology Innovation Center at PG&E also
pointed out that those residential transformers are designed to cool at night to
avoid overheating during the day. If they are used at max capacity to charge EVs
at night they stay hot and may fail.

The solution presented by the panel was smart grid technology to enable EV
chargers to communicate with the grid and distribute the charging demand within
the existing capacity. However, these technologies are still in development.

It seems to me that this will be a significant hurdle to widespread adoption of
EVs. We've all seen the studies showing we have plenty of off-peak capacity to
charge a nation full of EVs, but the distribution system apparently can't handle
it.

Was this a factor in the difficulties getting the Mini EV chargers installed for
residential customers? Any ideas on how to address this issue in the short term
with several manufacturers scheduled to start selling EVs in the next two years?

-Frank

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It's not in the article but it's been covered on the 'net, and I've heard it
directly from Volt engineers.

From what I gather, the Volt will, at a minimum, have a power split when the
engine is running, with mechanical coupling from engine to wheels.  This is
probably the best way both to improve efficiency and to achieve the requisite
cumulative peak power at low state of charge.

Owen



Arthur Keller wrote:
> Owen, I can't tell from the article that the Volt isn't still a
> series hybrid (which should be easier to build and maintain, and
> probably more reliable than a parallel hybrid).  It makes the most
> sense from an efficiency point of view to run the gasoline-powered
> generator at the speed associated with highest efficiency.  But going
> from 0 to directly to that RPM quickly (a) may not be the most
> efficient way to get to that efficient RPM, and (b) produces auditory
> feedback that appears to be disconcerting.  The proposed solution of
> ramping up to that most-efficient-RPM reduces the disconcerting
> sudden loud noise and might possibly make the gasoline generator
> motor more efficient as well.  But that would still be a series
> hybrid.  Where do you find the article says otherwise?  Thanks.
>
> Best regards,
> Arthur
>
> At 9:00 AM -0800 11/23/09, Owen Emry wrote:
>> The Volt appears to have evolved (predictably) toward a parallel
>> hybrid arrangement.  These fears are unfounded and epitomize the
>> "range anxiety" phenomenon.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerry Pohorsky wrote:
>>>
>>>  Howdy,
>>>
>>>  Passing on this article that Ron Freund mentioned at the meeting
>>> on Saturday.
>>>
>>>  Adios,
>>>
>>>  Jerry Pohorsky
>>>
>>>  -------- Original Message --------
>>>
>>>  Subject: NYTimes article on what happens afterdepletion in the
>>> AER 40 mile Volt
>>>  - still a prototype
>>>  Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:13:18 +0000
>>>  From: Freund, Ron (Ron Freund, SSRT) <ron.freund@...>
>>>  To: 'Jerry Pohorsky' <pohorsky@...>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  November 22, 2009
>>>  For the Volt, How's Life After 40 (Miles)?
>>>  By LINDSAY BROOKE
>>>
>>>  Milford, Mich.
>>>
>>>  SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on
>>> Wednesday, I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear
>>> that future owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge
>>> indicator showing just a few miles of remaining range.
>>>
>>>  If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely
>>> by batteries, I'd be praying to the god of electrons for a place to
>>> pull off and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General
>>> Motors' proving grounds here, and I'm about to experience what the
>>> Volt's vehicle line director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz,
>>> says is the car's trump card: a gasoline-powered generator under
>>> the hood.
>>>
>>>  Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>>> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent.
>>> But for eventual Volt owners, a crucial - and so far unanswered -
>>> question is how the car will perform when the battery's charge is
>>> depleted and all electricity is provided by an onboard generator,
>>> driven by a gasoline engine, that has no mechanical connection to
>>> the wheels.
>>>
>>>  Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator's
>>> engine be in an otherwise mute car?
>>>
>>>  G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40
>>> miles of purely electric driving before the computer calls for the
>>> generator, which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71
>>> horsepower), to start and sustain the battery's minimum charge
>>> level - the "extended range" operating mode.
>>>
>>>  So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>>  >
>>>  It takes a few laps of Milford's twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road
>>> course to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With
>>> the dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the
>>> Volt toward a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator
>>> engine's four pistons to chime in.
>>>
>>>  But I completely miss it; the engine's initial engagement is
>>> inaudible and seamless. I'm impressed. G.M. had not previously made
>>> test drives of the Volt in its extended-range mode available to
>>> reporters, but I can see that in this development car, at least,
>>> the engineers got it right.
>>>
>>>  I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the
>>> "gas pedal" controls only the flow of battery power to the electric
>>> drive motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is
>>> programmed to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic
>>> will take some getting used to by a public accustomed to
>>> vroom-vroom feedback.
>>  >
>>>  A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track's infield
>>> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying
>>> mechanical roar reminds me of a missed shift in a
>>> manual-transmission car. For a moment the sound is disconcerting;
>>> without a tachometer, I guess that it peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>>
>>>  I asked what was going on.
>>>
>>>  "The system sensed that it's dipped below its state of charge and
>>> is trying to recover quickly," Mr. Posawatz said. "The
>>> charge-sustaining mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet."
>>>
>>>  Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still
>>> spinning the generator. A few times later in our test, the
>>> generator behaved in similar fashion - too loud and too unruly for
>>> production - but there is time for the programmers to find
>>> solutions. Volt engineers are revising the car's control software,
>>> which will have the effect of "feathering" the transition from the
>>> nearly silent all-electric mode to the charge-sustaining mode, when
>>> the generator will be operating.
>>>
>>>  "We're designing a software set of rules, which will just require
>>> more seat time for the engineers to finish," Mr. Posawatz said. "We
>>> have nine months to work this out."
>>>
>>>  The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is
>>> something Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility
>>> and efficiency of this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>>
>>>  Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt's
>>> electric drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the
>>> road. Clicking the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit
>>> more oomph than when in Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there
>>> isn't much difference between the two except at peak power.
>>>
>>>  The Low mode- Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall
>>> - is unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While
>>> coasting, it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends
>>> in the regular brakes.
>>>
>>>  Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal
>>> driving in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The
>>> regenerative braking, whether applied through the Volt's foot pedal
>>> or by pulling the shift lever down into Low mode, is both
>>> progressive and predictable. This is in stark contrast to the
>>> harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered by BMW's all-electric
>>> Mini-E, for example.
>>>
>>>  There is minimal body lean in the tight corners. The
>>> low-rolling-resistance Goodyear tires created specifically for the
>>> Volt provide excellent grip.
>>>
>>  > Throughout my test, the prototype behaves admirably. At its
>> current state of development, the Volt is an extremely refined
>> vehicle.
>

Sounds a bit like the Solectria Force, but with a generator to allay the
fears of running out of battery.  So, GM could have had a parallel EV back
in the '90s had they wanted.

-----Original Message-----
From: eaasv@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eaasv@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Owen
Emry
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:01 AM
To: eaasv@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [eaasv] What happens after driving 40 miles in Chevy Volt?

The Volt appears to have evolved (predictably) toward a parallel hybrid
arrangement.  These fears are unfounded and epitomize the "range anxiety"
phenomenon.

Owen



Jerry Pohorsky wrote:


Howdy,

Passing on this article that Ron Freund mentioned at the meeting on
Saturday.

Adios,

Jerry Pohorsky

-------- Original Message --------

Subject:  NYTimes article on what happens afterdepletion in the AER 40
mile Volt
- still a prototype
Date:  Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:13:18 +0000
From:  Freund, Ron (Ron Freund, SSRT) <ron.freund@...>
To:  'Jerry Pohorsky' <pohorsky@...>



November 22, 2009
For the Volt, How's Life After 40 (Miles)?
By LINDSAY BROOKE

Milford, Mich.

SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday, I
found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future owners of
electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing just a few
miles of remaining range.


If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by
batteries, I'd be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off
and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors' proving
grounds here, and I'm about to experience what the Volt's vehicle line
director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car's trump card: a
gasoline-powered generator under the hood.

Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But for
eventual Volt owners, a crucial - and so far unanswered - question is how
the car will perform when the battery's charge is depleted and all
electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline
engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.

Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator's engine be
in an otherwise mute car?

G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator, which
has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and sustain
the battery's minimum charge level - the "extended range" operating mode.

So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?

It takes a few laps of Milford's twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course to
deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the dashboard icon
signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward a hill and wait
for the sound and feel of the generator engine's four pistons to chime in.

But I completely miss it; the engine's initial engagement is inaudible and
seamless. I'm impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of the
Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see that
in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.

I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the "gas pedal"
controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive motor. The
pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed to run at
constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some getting used to
by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.

A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track's infield section,
the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical roar reminds me
of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a moment the sound is
disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it peaked around 3,000
r.p.m.

I asked what was going on.

"The system sensed that it's dipped below its state of charge and is trying
to recover quickly," Mr. Posawatz said. "The charge-sustaining mode is
clearly not where we want it to be yet."

Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning the
generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in similar
fashion - too loud and too unruly for production - but there is time for the
programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising the car's control
software, which will have the effect of "feathering" the transition from the
nearly silent all-electric mode to the charge-sustaining mode, when the
generator will be operating.

"We're designing a software set of rules, which will just require more seat
time for the engineers to finish," Mr. Posawatz said. "We have nine months
to work this out."

The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something
Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of
this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.

Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt's electric
drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking
the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in
Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn't much difference between the
two except at peak power.

The Low mode- Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall - is
unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting, it
applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular brakes.

Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving in
slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative
braking, whether applied through the Volt's foot pedal or by pulling the
shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This is
in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered by
BMW's all-electric Mini-E, for example.

There is minimal body lean in the tight corners. The low-rolling-resistance
Goodyear tires created specifically for the Volt provide excellent grip.

Throughout my test, the prototype behaves admirably. At its current state of
development, the Volt is an extremely refined vehicle.

Owen, I can't tell from the article that the Volt isn't still a
series hybrid (which should be easier to build and maintain, and
probably more reliable than a parallel hybrid).  It makes the most
sense from an efficiency point of view to run the gasoline-powered
generator at the speed associated with highest efficiency.  But going
from 0 to directly to that RPM quickly (a) may not be the most
efficient way to get to that efficient RPM, and (b) produces auditory
feedback that appears to be disconcerting.  The proposed solution of
ramping up to that most-efficient-RPM reduces the disconcerting
sudden loud noise and might possibly make the gasoline generator
motor more efficient as well.  But that would still be a series
hybrid.  Where do you find the article says otherwise?  Thanks.

Best regards,
Arthur

At 9:00 AM -0800 11/23/09, Owen Emry wrote:
>The Volt appears to have evolved (predictably) toward a parallel
>hybrid arrangement.  These fears are unfounded and epitomize the
>"range anxiety" phenomenon.
>
>Owen
>
>
>
>Jerry Pohorsky wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Howdy,
>>
>>  Passing on this article that Ron Freund mentioned at the meeting
>>on Saturday.
>>
>>  Adios,
>>
>>  Jerry Pohorsky
>>
>>  -------- Original Message --------
>>
>>  Subject: NYTimes article on what happens afterdepletion in the
>>AER 40 mile Volt
>>  - still a prototype
>>  Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:13:18 +0000
>>  From: Freund, Ron (Ron Freund, SSRT) <ron.freund@...>
>>  To: 'Jerry Pohorsky' <pohorsky@...>
>>
>>
>>
>>  November 22, 2009
>>  For the Volt, How's Life After 40 (Miles)?
>>  By LINDSAY BROOKE
>>
>>  Milford, Mich.
>>
>>  SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on
>>Wednesday, I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear
>>that future owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge
>>indicator showing just a few miles of remaining range.
>>
>>  If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely
>>by batteries, I'd be praying to the god of electrons for a place to
>>pull off and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General
>>Motors' proving grounds here, and I'm about to experience what the
>>Volt's vehicle line director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz,
>>says is the car's trump card: a gasoline-powered generator under
>>the hood.
>>
>>  Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>>battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent.
>>But for eventual Volt owners, a crucial - and so far unanswered -
>>question is how the car will perform when the battery's charge is
>>depleted and all electricity is provided by an onboard generator,
>>driven by a gasoline engine, that has no mechanical connection to
>>the wheels.
>>
>>  Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator's
>>engine be in an otherwise mute car?
>>
>>  G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40
>>miles of purely electric driving before the computer calls for the
>>generator, which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71
>>horsepower), to start and sustain the battery's minimum charge
>>level - the "extended range" operating mode.
>>
>>  So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>  >
>>  It takes a few laps of Milford's twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road
>>course to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With
>>the dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the
>>Volt toward a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator
>>engine's four pistons to chime in.
>>
>>  But I completely miss it; the engine's initial engagement is
>>inaudible and seamless. I'm impressed. G.M. had not previously made
>>test drives of the Volt in its extended-range mode available to
>>reporters, but I can see that in this development car, at least,
>>the engineers got it right.
>>
>>  I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the
>>"gas pedal" controls only the flow of battery power to the electric
>>drive motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is
>>programmed to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic
>>will take some getting used to by a public accustomed to
>>vroom-vroom feedback.
>  >
>>  A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track's infield
>>section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying
>>mechanical roar reminds me of a missed shift in a
>>manual-transmission car. For a moment the sound is disconcerting;
>>without a tachometer, I guess that it peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>
>>  I asked what was going on.
>>
>>  "The system sensed that it's dipped below its state of charge and
>>is trying to recover quickly," Mr. Posawatz said. "The
>>charge-sustaining mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet."
>>
>>  Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still
>>spinning the generator. A few times later in our test, the
>>generator behaved in similar fashion - too loud and too unruly for
>>production - but there is time for the programmers to find
>>solutions. Volt engineers are revising the car's control software,
>>which will have the effect of "feathering" the transition from the
>>nearly silent all-electric mode to the charge-sustaining mode, when
>>the generator will be operating.
>>
>>  "We're designing a software set of rules, which will just require
>>more seat time for the engineers to finish," Mr. Posawatz said. "We
>>have nine months to work this out."
>>
>>  The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is
>>something Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility
>>and efficiency of this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>
>>  Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt's
>>electric drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the
>>road. Clicking the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit
>>more oomph than when in Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there
>>isn't much difference between the two except at peak power.
>>
>>  The Low mode- Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall
>>- is unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While
>>coasting, it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends
>>in the regular brakes.
>>
>>  Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal
>>driving in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The
>>regenerative braking, whether applied through the Volt's foot pedal
>>or by pulling the shift lever down into Low mode, is both
>>progressive and predictable. This is in stark contrast to the
>>harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered by BMW's all-electric
>>Mini-E, for example.
>>
>>  There is minimal body lean in the tight corners. The
>>low-rolling-resistance Goodyear tires created specifically for the
>>Volt provide excellent grip.
>>
>  > Throughout my test, the prototype behaves admirably. At its
>current state of development, the Volt is an extremely refined
>vehicle.

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The Volt appears to have evolved (predictably) toward a parallel hybrid
arrangement.  These fears are unfounded and epitomize the "range anxiety"
phenomenon.

Owen



Jerry Pohorsky wrote:
>
>
> Howdy,
>
> Passing on this article that Ron Freund mentioned at the meeting on Saturday.
>
> Adios,
>
> Jerry Pohorsky
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> Subject:  NYTimes article on what happens afterdepletion in the AER 40 mile
Volt
> - still a prototype
> Date:  Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:13:18 +0000
> From:  Freund, Ron (Ron Freund, SSRT) <ron.freund@...>
> To:  'Jerry Pohorsky' <pohorsky@...>
>
>
>
> November 22, 2009
> For the Volt, How's Life After 40 (Miles)?
> By LINDSAY BROOKE
>
> Milford, Mich.
>
> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday, I
found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future owners of
electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing just a few miles
of remaining range.
>
> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by
batteries, I'd be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off and
plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors' proving grounds
here, and I'm about to experience what the Volt's vehicle line director (and my
passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car's trump card: a gasoline-powered
generator under the hood.
>
> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But for
eventual Volt owners, a crucial - and so far unanswered - question is how the
car will perform when the battery's charge is depleted and all electricity is
provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline engine, that has no
mechanical connection to the wheels.
>
> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator's engine be in
an otherwise mute car?
>
> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of purely
electric driving before the computer calls for the generator, which has an
output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and sustain the battery's
minimum charge level - the "extended range" operating mode.
>
> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>
> It takes a few laps of Milford's twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course to
deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the dashboard icon
signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward a hill and wait for
the sound and feel of the generator engine's four pistons to chime in.
>
> But I completely miss it; the engine's initial engagement is inaudible and
seamless. I'm impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of the Volt in
its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see that in this
development car, at least, the engineers got it right.
>
> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the "gas pedal"
controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive motor. The pedal
has no connection to the generator, which is programmed to run at constant,
preset speeds. This characteristic will take some getting used to by a public
accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.
>
> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track's infield section,
the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical roar reminds me of
a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a moment the sound is
disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>
> I asked what was going on.
>
> "The system sensed that it's dipped below its state of charge and is trying to
recover quickly," Mr. Posawatz said. "The charge-sustaining mode is clearly not
where we want it to be yet."
>
> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning the
generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in similar
fashion - too loud and too unruly for production - but there is time for the
programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising the car's control
software, which will have the effect of "feathering" the transition from the
nearly silent all-electric mode to the charge-sustaining mode, when the
generator will be operating.
>
> "We're designing a software set of rules, which will just require more seat
time for the engineers to finish," Mr. Posawatz said. "We have nine months to
work this out."
>
> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something Volt
owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of this type of
hybrid system, may have to accept.
>
> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt's electric drive
has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking the Sport
button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in Normal mode; in
terms of efficiency, there isn't much difference between the two except at peak
power.
>
> The Low mode- Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall - is unique
in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting, it applies
electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular brakes.
>
> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving in
slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative braking,
whether applied through the Volt's foot pedal or by pulling the shift lever down
into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This is in stark contrast to
the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered by BMW's all-electric Mini-E,
for example.
>
> There is minimal body lean in the tight corners. The low-rolling-resistance
Goodyear tires created specifically for the Volt provide excellent grip.
>
> Throughout my test, the prototype behaves admirably. At its current state of
development, the Volt is an extremely refined vehicle.
>
>
>

November 22, 2009
For the Volt, How's Life After 40 (Miles)?
By LINDSAY BROOKE

Milford, Mich.

SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday, I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing just a few miles of remaining range.

If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by batteries, I'd be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors' proving grounds here, and I'm about to experience what the Volt's vehicle line director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car's trump card: a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.

Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But for eventual Volt owners, a crucial - and so far unanswered - question is how the car will perform when the battery's charge is depleted and all electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.

Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator's engine be in an otherwise mute car?

G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator, which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and sustain the battery's minimum charge level - the "extended range" operating mode.

So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?

It takes a few laps of Milford's twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine's four pistons to chime in.

But I completely miss it; the engine's initial engagement is inaudible and seamless. I'm impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of the Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see that in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.

I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the "gas pedal" controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.

A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track's infield section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical roar reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a moment the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.

I asked what was going on.

"The system sensed that it's dipped below its state of charge and is trying to recover quickly," Mr. Posawatz said. "The charge-sustaining mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet."

Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in similar fashion - too loud and too unruly for production - but there is time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising the car's control software, which will have the effect of "feathering" the transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to the charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.

"We're designing a software set of rules, which will just require more seat time for the engineers to finish," Mr. Posawatz said. "We have nine months to work this out."

The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.

Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt's electric drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn't much difference between the two except at peak power.

The Low mode- Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall - is unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting, it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular brakes.

Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative braking, whether applied through the Volt's foot pedal or by pulling the shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered by BMW's all-electric Mini-E, for example.

There is minimal body lean in the tight corners. The low-rolling-resistance Goodyear tires created specifically for the Volt provide excellent grip.

Throughout my test, the prototype behaves admirably. At its current state of development, the Volt is an extremely refined vehicle.

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Hello Scott,


On Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 11:09:06 PM, Scott Petersen wrote:
>I had heard separately that it was not
> the lithium that was the problem, but rather the phosphate coming out of
> central Africa which was the problem due to instability in the region.

I'm 99.999% sure there's a lot more Phosphate than Lithium.
There are other relatively rare materials used in Lithium and
Nickle Metal Hydride batteries, however.

Jeff C.
--
Jeff Chan
mailto:rav4ev@...
http://www.jeffchan.com/

 

Howdy,

This month we have a triple feature.

First, Steve and Eric Schmidt will present the Lithium battery booster they use on their MG Midget EV.
This handy little device gives the weakest cell a boost when they are on the road so they won't get stranded.
It's powered by the rest of the cells.

Second, Peter Holoyda will tell us about his organization, Renewably First.
(www.renewablyfirst.org )
They are working with other groups like the cities of Palo Alto and San Jose to make sure the coming roll out of EVs goes smoothly.

Finally, representatives of ELV Motors ( www.ELVmotors.com )
will bring some of their electric bikes for us to test ride in the parking lot.
They will have safety helmets for all riders and are interested in our feedback on the various bikes they have.
ELV motors also offers electric (Vespa like) scooters and a couple of Neighborhood Electric Vehicles (a car and a pickup truck).
They even have a full sized electric skateboard with a wireless remote control.

The meeting is open to the public and refreshments will be served.
For a map on how to get there, see our website:
http://www.eaasv.org/meetings.html

Adios,

Jerry Pohorsky
Electric Auto Association
Silicon Valley Chapter President

I get two of every posting in email. Is this happening to anyone else?
Is it a setting at the Yahoo group site? Am I repeating myself here?

Anyway, anyone got any ideas how I can fix this?

Thanks,
Ed Savage