Wow, Derek, more great info you have compiled.  Wi

this, the revs per mile for all the tires, and the gear

spreadsheet, you have taken 80% of the work out of this

science for everyone.  Thanks!



I have an MXT, and MXL and a Nokian mounted on stock

rims, but no scale.  I will try to get them weighed.



One spec that would be real useful would be the weight

of a stock 16" sycro wheel and a stock sized tire for

it.  This will give you the rough weight of the damping

that the "N" Boges are set up for.  At least you know

the "Ns" will work if you stick close to that weight.



As for the "M" shocks, I suspect they have stiffer

damping (mostly stiffer compression damping, but that

the rebound is still not stiff enough.  There must be a

reason for both an "M" and an "N".  Isn't the "M" HD

shock for 14" wheels.  I believe they come stock in AUS

on the 14" syncros, and thus may not be set up with

adequate rebound damping for 16" wheels/tires.



So, yes, i see the "N"s as the easy way out for you.

But not the only option.



And I think 15" syncros may also benefit from the "N"

shock, given the weights of some combos, but that's

another story.

Steve





Derek Drew wrote:

>

> I decided to participate in the wheel weighing derby

> of a few weeks ago, study recent wheel weighing

> posts, and collect the data in one place. I found

>

> -- 18lbs regular factory alloy rim

>

> --  21lbs the new "perfect 16" wheel" I found

> (reference

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/8672)

>

> This compares with recent weights posted to the list

> of

>

> -- 23lbs South Africa 15" steel wheel (according to

> John Wessels)

>

> -- 23lbs South Africa 15" alloy wheel (according to

> Eric Abercrombie)

>

> -- 28lbs Factory 16" Steel Wheel (according to Eric

> Abercrombie)

>

> The weights above compare with a weight estimate of

>

> -- 35lbs for a Stockton steel wheel in 16" size

> (www.stocktonwheel.com)

>

> Meanwhile, just for the heck of it, I also weighed a

> BFGoodrich 27x8.50/14 tire and it came in at 26lbs. I

> called BFG and asked about weights, and they said the

> tire is rated to weigh 29.64lbs. Mine was worn, so

> this made sense. Interestingly, BFG said their

> 245/75/16 tire weighed 46.6lbs, an increase in weight

> of 17 lbs on each wheel over the 27 x 8.50/14 size.

> That's a BIG increase.

>

> What does all this data show? Well, for one thing, I

> think that 35lbs for a steel wheel is pushing it. You

> don't need all that extra weight on the unsprung side

> of your springs with all these lighter weight options

> around. For another, that old factory alloy 14" wheel

> is starting to look pretty good weight-wise.

>

> Also, it shows that the tire can contribute *much*

> more weight than the wheel. There is nothing much you

> can do about tire weight. 16" rims could

> theoretically cut down slightly on the rubber by

> shaving some of the sidewall off the tire, but this

> effect seems to have been lost in the case of the

> 245/75/16.

>

> So from my own standpoint I am now looking at an

> increase in wheel/tire weight of about 50%, as

> follows:

>

> --14" Alloys + 27x8.50/14 BFG: 18 + 29.64 = 47.64lbs

> (Eric Abercrombie reports his weighed 45lbs. so he

> must have had a slightly worn tire too)

>

> --15" SA alloy with 215/75/15 Michelin LTX = 51lbs

> (Eric Abercrombie reports)

>

> --16" factory steel 5.5" rims plus BFGs = 60lbs (Eric

> Abercrombie reports)

>

> --16" Alloys + 245/75/16 BFG: 21 + 46.44 = 67.44lbs

> MY PLAN

>

> --Stockton 16" steel wheels + 245/75/16 = est. 84lbs

> (including steel inner spacer)

>

> Note that in looking through the old posts, I felt

> that Eric Abercrombie was our best wheel weigher

> (more weighing and more wheels).

>

> I have no way to guess right now what shock will be

> suitable for an increase in wheel weight from 48lbs

> to 67lbs. Tim Smith warns us on this about ill

> effects of extra unsprung weight upon the shock

> valving. Possibly as Steve S. always says, it is time

> for us to investigate the M or N Boge shock or some

> other odd thing from South Africa.

>

> As an aside, I measured the actual height of my

> 27x8.50/14 tires and the actual height of my

> 245/75/16 tires and came up with 26.5" and 30.5"

> respectively, a difference of 4". The actual ground

> clearance increase from the larger tire, then, (which

> is the point of the whole thing) is exactly 2 inches.

>

> For a look at what the 16" wheel with 245/75 looks

> like, see

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/wheelandtireonvanwithhubcap.jpg.

> That shows the wheel mounted on the front of my van

> so yes, it is possible. For two more pictures, see

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfectwheel16s.jpg

> and

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfect16wheel.jpg

> Information about how to get one of these 16" wheels

> will go out after I have had a chance to test fit

> them on a 2WD tomorrow. After that, I will make a

> longer post regarding some of the technical issues

> with selecting a 16" wheel, comments about when to go

> with a 15" vs 16" wheel, and comments about suitable

> tire sizes. For those who have sent me wheel

> inquiries in the last two weeks regarding joining the

> 16" wheel purchase or 15" wheels, I will be emailing

> you the information in about a day or so and will

> provide technical information to the list. If this

> subject interests you and you have not yet emailed

> me, do so now.

>

> ________________________________________________________

> Derek Drew                              New York, NY

> & Washington, DC

> derekdrew@...                     212-580-6486

> Email me for viscous couplings

> '90 Syncro Westfalia...

> ...seen off-road at

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/Syncro_Madness_Area.htm

> Note: most valuable Vanagon sites on the planet (for

> owners) are:

>

> http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?S1=vanagon

>       http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/

>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro

>       http://www.vanagon.com

>       http://www.syncro.org

> My refrigerator article:

>

> http://www.vanagon.com/info/articles/Refrigerator/Reefer_Madness.htm

> My article that shows how to deal with insurance

> companies:

>

> http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/auto-insurance-madness.html

> To view Wolfgang's incredibly informative wheel

> article

>

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/fitbigtiresonvanagon.htm

>

> To view Tim Smith's incredibly useful gearing

> calculator

>

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/syncrotireandgearratios.xls

>

> To view two articles about how to think about

> improving your gears at transmission rebuild time

>

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7207

>

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7221

> To view some 16" Trailing Arms that enable much

> larger tires see

>

>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syncro-org/files/Wheels%2C%20Tires%20%26%20Gearing\

/Wheel%20%26%20Tire%20Photos/16_Inch_Trailing_Arm.jpg

> To view the only perfect 16" rim for T3 Vanagon

> Syncro see

>

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfectwheel16s.jpg

>

>

> http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfect16wheel.jpg

>

> IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL SYNCRO OWNERS WHO DRIVE OFF

> THE ROAD:

>       You only get to change your ring and pinions

> once every 10 or 20 years

>        because that's how long the average syncro

>        transmission goes before its next rebuild.

> Start planning for 6.17 gears NOW!

> If you would like to modify your subscription

> settings (including unsubscribing), visit:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro

> Please remember that rude or offensive language is

> not allowed on the Syncro list. Please try your best

> to resolve differences privately and keep them off

> the list.

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

> Terms of Service.

t 10:25 PM 12/8/01 -0500, Derek Drew wrote:

>   I decided to participate in the wheel weighing derby of a few weeks ago,





OK, 16" alloys at 21 lbs + 245/75/16 = 67lbs



Audi/Passat? steel 23lbs + 30.5x9.5x15  = ??lbs,

bet it's within 5 lbs and gets the same diameter tire.



Both are a lot of unsprung weight!!!!



I'm staying with econo 15" steel tx, despite less than

perfect offset. bye, Tim

David Marshall

Fast Forward Automotive Inc.
4356 Quesnel Hixon Road
Quesnel BC Canada  V2J 6Z3
mailto:info@...      http://www.fastforward.ca      
Phone: (250) 992 7775           FAX: (250) 992 1160

• Vanagon Accessories and Engine Conversions  
• Vanagon, Transporter and Iltis Sales and Importation
• European Lighting for most Volkswagen models

-----Original Message-----
From: Derek Drew [mailto:derekdrew@...]
Sent: December 8, 2001 7:25 PM
To: Syncro@yahoogroups.com; VANAGON@...
Subject: [Syncro] Wheel Weight Data Observations

I decided to participate in the wheel weighing derby of a few weeks ago, study recent wheel weighing posts, and collect the data in one place. I found

-- 18lbs regular factory alloy rim

--  21lbs the new "perfect 16" wheel" I found (reference http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/8672)

This compares with recent weights posted to the list of 

-- 23lbs South Africa 15" steel wheel (according to John Wessels)

-- 23lbs South Africa 15" alloy wheel (according to Eric Abercrombie)

-- 28lbs Factory 16" Steel Wheel (according to Eric Abercrombie)

The weights above compare with a weight estimate of

-- 35lbs for a Stockton steel wheel in 16" size (www.stocktonwheel.com)

Meanwhile, just for the heck of it, I also weighed a BFGoodrich 27x8.50/14 tire and it came in at 26lbs. I called BFG and asked about weights, and they said the tire is rated to weigh 29.64lbs. Mine was worn, so this made sense. Interestingly, BFG said their 245/75/16 tire weighed 46.6lbs, an increase in weight of 17 lbs on each wheel over the 27 x 8.50/14 size. That's a BIG increase.

What does all this data show? Well, for one thing, I think that 35lbs for a steel wheel is pushing it. You don't need all that extra weight on the unsprung side of your springs with all these lighter weight options around. For another, that old factory alloy 14" wheel is starting to look pretty good weight-wise.

Also, it shows that the tire can contribute *much* more weight than the wheel. There is nothing much you can do about tire weight. 16" rims could theoretically cut down slightly on the rubber by shaving some of the sidewall off the tire, but this effect seems to have been lost in the case of the 245/75/16.

So from my own standpoint I am now looking at an increase in wheel/tire weight of about 50%, as follows:

--14" Alloys + 27x8.50/14 BFG: 18 + 29.64 = 47.64lbs (Eric Abercrombie reports his weighed 45lbs. so he must have had a slightly worn tire too)

--15" SA alloy with 215/75/15 Michelin LTX = 51lbs (Eric Abercrombie reports)

--16" factory steel 5.5" rims plus BFGs = 60lbs (Eric Abercrombie reports)

--16" Alloys + 245/75/16 BFG: 21 + 46.44 = 67.44lbs MY PLAN

--Stockton 16" steel wheels + 245/75/16 = est. 84lbs (including steel inner spacer)

Note that in looking through the old posts, I felt that Eric Abercrombie was our best wheel weigher (more weighing and more wheels).

I have no way to guess right now what shock will be suitable for an increase in wheel weight from 48lbs to 67lbs. Tim Smith warns us on this about ill effects of extra unsprung weight upon the shock valving. Possibly as Steve S. always says, it is time for us to investigate the M or N Boge shock or some other odd thing from South Africa.

As an aside, I measured the actual height of my 27x8.50/14 tires and the actual height of my 245/75/16 tires and came up with 26.5" and 30.5" respectively, a difference of 4". The actual ground clearance increase from the larger tire, then, (which is the point of the whole thing) is exactly 2 inches.

For a look at what the 16" wheel with 245/75 looks like, see http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/wheelandtireonvanwithhubcap.jpg. That shows the wheel mounted on the front of my van so yes, it is possible. For two more pictures, see http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfectwheel16s.jpg and http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfect16wheel.jpg Information about how to get one of these 16" wheels will go out after I have had a chance to test fit them on a 2WD tomorrow. After that, I will make a longer post regarding some of the technical issues with selecting a 16" wheel, comments about when to go with a 15" vs 16" wheel, and comments about suitable tire sizes. For those who have sent me wheel inquiries in the last two weeks regarding joining the 16" wheel purchase or 15" wheels, I will be emailing you the information in about a day or so and will provide technical information to the list. If this subject interests you and you have not yet emailed me, do so now.



________________________________________________________
Derek Drew                              New York, NY & Washington, DC
derekdrew@...                     212-580-6486
Email me for viscous couplings
'90 Syncro Westfalia...
...seen off-road at
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/Syncro_Madness_Area.htm
Note: most valuable Vanagon sites on the planet (for owners) are:
      http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?S1=vanagon
      http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro
      http://www.vanagon.com
      http://www.syncro.org
My refrigerator article:
       http://www.vanagon.com/info/articles/Refrigerator/Reefer_Madness.htm
My article that shows how to deal with insurance companies:
       http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/auto-insurance-madness.html
To view Wolfgang's incredibly informative wheel article
       http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/fitbigtiresonvanagon.htm
To view Tim Smith's incredibly useful gearing calculator
       http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/syncrotireandgearratios.xls
To view two articles about how to think about improving your gears at transmission rebuild time
       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7207
       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7221
To view some 16" Trailing Arms that enable much larger tires see
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syncro-org/files/Wheels%2C%20Tires%20%26%20Gearing/Wheel%20%26%20Tire%20Photos/16_Inch_Trailing_Arm.jpg
To view the only perfect 16" rim for T3 Vanagon Syncro see
      http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfectwheel16s.jpg
      http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/perfect16wheel.jpg        
IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL SYNCRO OWNERS WHO DRIVE OFF THE ROAD:
      You only get to change your ring and pinions once every 10 or 20 years
       because that's how long the average syncro
       transmission goes before its next rebuild. Start planning for 6.17 gears NOW!
If you would like to modify your subscription settings (including unsubscribing), visit:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro
Please remember that rude or offensive language is not allowed on the Syncro list. Please try your best to resolve differences privately and keep them off the list.















Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.