Hi everyone -
I just took the liberty (hope you don't mind, Graham :-) of
uploading Graham's proposed project plan and orginal miniscanner
goals so that we can begin creating our own.

As Graham mentioned earlier, we need to have a way of sharing files,
including those of us on non-Windows computers (Mac, Linux, etc.).
Graham proposed MSWrite files, and I mentioned text files, but upon
further thought, I think that .html files may be the most portable
and easy to read.

Does everyone have an editor capable of modifying .html? Let me know
if you do not, otherwise I will assume you do.

- Ken

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII
group.

   File        : /Original Goals.htm
   Uploaded by : priuspostus <prius__postus@...>
   Description : Graham's Original Miniscanner Goals

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII/files/Original%20Goals.h\
tm

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

priuspostus <prius__postus@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII
group.

   File        : /Scanner Project Plan.htm
   Uploaded by : priuspostus <prius__postus@...>
   Description : Graham's Suggested Project Plan

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII/files/Scanner%20Project%\
20Plan.htm

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

priuspostus <prius__postus@...>

--- In Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com, "rlodian"
<rlodian@y...> wrote:

Hi Tom, welcome to the group!

> I'm the one who suggested the Motorola MCU. I have a little over 20
> years experience as a software programmer/architect at both huge
> corporations and tiny startups.
> Firmware experience is with PIC, 8051 variants, and many Motorola
> MCUs.
> Largely self-taught as a hardware guy, yes, with all the horror
that
> implies.
>

Your background seems fairly similiar to mine...

...

> I have an '04 Prius (with the EV button mod, thanks Wayne).

Yes, we all owe a lot to Wayne and Jerry for sharing this with us.

>
> An observation about this group dynamic:
> It looks to me like this project will succeed, where most group
> projects have failed, because Graham Davies has already stepped up
as
> defacto project lead. I'm not a big fan of consensus.  Projects
that
> I've seen work well all had a strong project lead who drove the
> decisions.

We are definitely fortunate that we have Graham's experience with
the previous Miniscanners, as well as everyone else's technical
skills.

> The basic process being: gather facts and opinions, make a
decision.
> We've already seen this with the MCU choice, and I love it.

The MCU choice is fairly important, and the Atmel is a younger
architecture, so it may have been easier to agree on than a few of
the others - the display comes to mind... :-)  BTW, I'm not sure we
have "finalized" the MCU decision - we need to get poll results!

...
> Depending when this starts coming together,
> by rescheduling some projects I can devote some serious time to
> help with this project.

Tom, it is great to have your abilities and your willingness to help
in the group. We can't help but succeed with a team like this!

...

I'm the one who suggested the Motorola MCU. I have a little over 20
years experience as a software programmer/architect at both huge
corporations and tiny startups.
Firmware experience is with PIC, 8051 variants, and many Motorola
MCUs.
Largely self-taught as a hardware guy, yes, with all the horror that
implies.

I'm currently self-employed, working on a "garage" project that is a
surprisingly similar display system, but for general aviation
aircraft.
It assimilates telemetry from multiple sources and
displays real-time data and pilot cues for various regimes of flight.
It uses a Noritake VFD and the Motorola 9S12E.
The MCU choice was based on its having oodles of I/O: three UARTS as
well as separate I2C and SPI.

I have an '04 Prius (with the EV button mod, thanks Wayne).

An observation about this group dynamic:
It looks to me like this project will succeed, where most group
projects have failed, because Graham Davies has already stepped up as
defacto project lead. I'm not a big fan of consensus.  Projects that
I've seen work well all had a strong project lead who drove the
decisions.
The basic process being: gather facts and opinions, make a decision.
We've already seen this with the MCU choice, and I love it.
I have no particular MCU ax to grind and have been interested in
looking at the Atmel line.

I also can appreciate Graham's concern of being the only guy doing the
heavy lifting. Depending when this starts coming together,
by rescheduling some projects I can devote some serious time to
help with this project. What's in it for me would be: a) the scanner,
b) gaining some experience in small-scale manufacturing.

---
Tom Bereiter

----- Original Message -----

From: list

To: Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 2:32 PM

Subject: RE: [Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII] Controversial requirements

Graham -

 

Being a bit blind in the 1 to 3 foot range and not having seen the mini scanner in person, I am a little concerned about the size of the output.  Looking at the picture on your site, it appears fairly small. What size is the lettering?  I have a problem reading my PDA and Cell phone without reading glasses which can create a real problem for me when driving. Looking at the picture on your site, it appears fairly small. My Eye Doc says this is a problem for many over 40 and I think you are correct that this could be a problem especially from a marketing standpoint.

 

What would be the possibility of having the current display and as an option, a connection to the Prius built-in display. I know that Costal Dave is working on a video input for the screen.  This, combined with an adapter that could be outside of the scanner may be a low cost alternative to hacking into the system.

 

Thanks

 

Larry

----- Original Message -----

From: list

To: Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 2:32 PM

Subject: RE: [Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII] Controversial requirements

Graham -

 

Being a bit blind in the 1 to 3 foot range and not having seen the mini scanner in person, I am a little concerned about the size of the output.  Looking at the picture on your site, it appears fairly small. What size is the lettering?  I have a problem reading my PDA and Cell phone without reading glasses which can create a real problem for me when driving. Looking at the picture on your site, it appears fairly small. My Eye Doc says this is a problem for many over 40 and I think you are correct that this could be a problem especially from a marketing standpoint.

 

What would be the possibility of having the current display and as an option, a connection to the Prius built-in display. I know that Costal Dave is working on a video input for the screen.  This, combined with an adapter that could be outside of the scanner may be a low cost alternative to hacking into the system.

 

Thanks

 

Larry

Hi everyone -

I am currently working as a software engineer at Metrowerks
(subsidiary of Motorola) but not in the CodeWarrior compiler group! I
used to work at Applied Microsystems (emulators, etc) before we were
bought by Metrowerks a year ago. I am familiar with embedded systems,
RTOSes, downloading firmware, etc. Typically I work with PowerPC
microprocessors, rather than MCUs, however. And lately, I have been
dulling my skills by producing large amounts of government
documentation for our avionics customers.

10 years ago or so, I worked in Detroit for EDS (Subsidiary of
General Motors) as a developer and project manager developing a
Windows-based scanner for OBD connections. We used a Z80 based OBD-to-
232 adapter called a Vehicle Link Tester (still for sale by the
Dearborn Group, I just saw on the web...). The scanner showed graphs
of engine parameters in real-time. It was used by the calibration
engineers who were tweaking the fuel tables. The engineers could
graph data, or store it for later playback. Examples of parameters
collected were A/F ratio, RPM, MAP sensor, etc. Sorry, I don't have
much info left about all this!

My degree was in Mechanical Engineering, although I have worked in
software my entire career. So, my electrical engrg skills are mostly
hobbyist, but I can get by!

I am interested in both a full scanner and miniscanner for the Prius.
I intend to work on deciphering the CAN messages so both scanners
will work! No, I don't have the budget to buy a THHT, even if it does
end up less than $600.

- Ken

--- In Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com, "ECROS Technology"
<YahooGroups@e...> wrote:
...
> I don't know of any reasonably priced sockets for TQFP68 chips like
the bigger Atmel AVRs.
[Ken] Does the carrier board for the AVR dev kit (STK-501) have a
socket? I presume that is why the price is high.
...
>
> The new MCU will easily fit in the Mark II package.  There's a lot
of discrete analog circuitry in the Mark II for the OBD-II data bus.
That all disappears.  There will be room for SerialFlash chips if we
want to log to internal memory and dump the data to a PC at the end
of the drive.
[Ken] What about a USB port like Richard recommended? Then we could
create files to a USB drive.
...
> I have some parts left over but I routinely place orders with
Mouser and DigiKey.  Was there some specific part you were interested
in?
[Ken] I wanted to know if it would be worthwhile to base our design
around already "in-stock" parts!

Hi Graham, welcome to the group!

--- In Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com, "Graham Davies"
<YahooGroups@e...> wrote:
...
> we should not go directly to production PCBs. We should have
> prototypes first,
[Ken] This makes sense. BTW, as we first start out, are there some
kind of sockets available that let you plug a TQFN into a breadboard?
...

> I will be ordering a
> development environment for the Atmel AVR series. It will support
the
> one with the CAN controller.
[Ken] It appears that you need to also order the add-on carrier
board to make that work. Have you asked any suppliers when the AVR
with CAN will be available?
...

> firmware tools are freely available. So, once there are prototypes
we
> could have many people contribute to firmware at no incremental
cost.
[Ken] Yes, I have downloaded it already myself.
...

> Bill Powell's post - starting from the Mark II would definitely
speed
> things up. If we stick with the display/enclosure combination it
will
> save a lot of searching.
[Ken] We will have to see how much real estate the new MCU and parts
will take before we decide this. But Bill is right that it is better
to base off the existing product. Graham, do you have extra parts
left over from the Miniscanner I or II?
...

> I would favor a "no-mods" approach, which
> rules out interfacing to the car's screen but would bring in a lot
of
> buyer's who'd be put off by the need to modify the car.
[Ken] This is the way I am leaning as well. Maybe we can create a
special version later with extra features - like 232 or USB, or
logging.
...

>
> Documents - we need to decide on an editable document standard.
Would
> Rich-Text do the trick with MSWrite the standard editor? What
about
> Mac people?
[Ken] How about just sticking with ASCII text files? For me, the
question is how we will share schematics, etc.
...

>
> Moderators - I can't see a problem with lots of moderators as long
as
> they are all trustworthy. To few can create problems if they and
the
> owner all go away. Sign me up if you like.
[Ken] OK - check your settings.
...

OK, I've read the posts so far and here are my comments in no
particular order:

PBCs - 50 Mini-Scanner PCBs (assuming same size as Mark II) would
cost $250 from my current supplier in China. This includes tooling.
Funding this should not be a problem. Having the parts procured and
the boards assembled will be what starts to push the cost up. I think
we should not go directly to production PCBs. We should have
prototypes first, hand assembled and delivered only to people working
on the firmware or deeply involved in decoding vehicle data.

Microcontroller - as I'm giving up on ZiLOG but without a proper job
still need to try to run ECROS Technology, I'm selecting another MCU
to which to port my operating system, ECROS. I will be ordering a
development environment for the Atmel AVR series. It will support the
one with the CAN controller. A big advantage (I think) is that the
firmware tools are freely available. So, once there are prototypes we
could have many people contribute to firmware at no incremental cost.
I don't intend to investigate the other options. Maybe "champions"
should step forward for the PIC, Motorola and Cygnal MCUs with CAN
controllers.

Bill Powell's post - starting from the Mark II would definitely speed
things up. If we stick with the display/enclosure combination it will
save a lot of searching. I would favor a "no-mods" approach, which
rules out interfacing to the car's screen but would bring in a lot of
buyer's who'd be put off by the need to modify the car.

Documents - we need to decide on an editable document standard. Would
Rich-Text do the trick with MSWrite the standard editor? What about
Mac people?

Moderators - I can't see a problem with lots of moderators as long as
they are all trustworthy. To few can create problems if they and the
owner all go away. Sign me up if you like. Can we please have a rule
that the subject line of posts must match the content? Or at least
not be misleading, as it often is when people reply to a post and
change the subject?

Voting - I think we should use the Polls feature, even though this
would force e-mail members to come on-line.

Graham.

Hi everyone

I am here under false pretences since I am technically incompetent [I
did train as a mechanical engineer but it didn't take].

However I am happy to moderate for you, I do it for 2-G and have
learnt a few things [literally, a few!]. It can help to have one in a
far flung time zone. Also if ever you need anything related to UK or
EU or RHD model etc., let me know

Regards and best of luck.

Jerry
UK [optimist]

--- In Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Whitmarsh"
<jerry@j...> wrote:
> Hi everyone

Hi Jerry, welcome!

>
> I am here under false pretences since I am technically incompetent
[I
> did train as a mechanical engineer but it didn't take].

Funny, my degree is in Mechanical engineering, but I have never done
it for money! I have always worked in software.

>
> However I am happy to moderate for you, I do it for 2-G and have
> learnt a few things [literally, a few!]. It can help to have one
in a
> far flung time zone.

Check your settings to make sure I got them right.


> Also if ever you need anything related to UK or
> EU or RHD model etc., let me know

Sure - if you could send some rear disk brakes....  :)

>
> Regards and best of luck.
>
> Jerry
> UK [optimist]
Great, we take all kinds!

Hi everyone

I am here under false pretences since I am technically incompetent [I
did train as a mechanical engineer but it didn't take].

However I am happy to moderate for you, I do it for 2-G and have
learnt a few things [literally, a few!]. It can help to have one in a
far flung time zone. Also if ever you need anything related to UK or
EU or RHD model etc., let me know

Regards and best of luck.

Jerry
UK [optimist]

Obviously, a group such as this will have to come to a concensus in
order to make a decision.

Some things to consider:
Not everyone will be available to check the messages all the time.
Not everyone will have an opinion on everything. Not all opinions
will be applicable.

So, I recommend for each decision, we have a period of discussion,
and a period of some sort of voting. Then we will move on.

Any other ideas?

Hi everyone -

If you want to be a moderator of the group, just let me know. I have
no intention of doing this only on my own!

Also, if you think something should be run differently, let me know
so I can change it. I am new at this moderation thing.....

- Ken

Hi everyone -
Since we have the capability to store files, photos, links, and
databases here in the group, we can use these to store our
information as we create it.

I have started populating the group's Links page, and would like
everyone's help to get started sharing other info. Here are some
things we should add (I'm sure there are others I have forgotten):

Project plan
Design Spec
CAN message Database
Financial info/ COGS

Please start adding info as you think of it!

- Ken

--- In Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Powell"
<whp@a...> wrote:

Hi Bill, welcome aboard!

> Two thoughts...
>
> First - My personal wish is to see MK-III be much like the current
> Miniscanner: stand-alone operation and the ability to "dump"
selected
> data via USB or RS-232.

And keeping it similar to the Mark II Miniscanner should keep the
cost down as well.

> However... If Dave can deliver us a
> video/touch interface to the MD, so much the better.  After several
> days of playing with the MD from the Gen 2 car, AND having access
to
> 80% of the schematics, Jeff and I decided that true "video" was
just
> burried way too deep in the package.  Yes, we successfully hacked
his
> for the night vision and rear camera (as well as Gameboy) but it
> wasn't pretty - right Dave?

It sounds like a great idea to have access to the MD, for both input
and output. The concerns are that it might drive up price and it
also may be too many "mods" for some people.


> Still waiting 04 schematics...
>
> Second - This is EXTREMELY tentative but I "may" be able to back-
door
> HSD CAN codes.  If I am VERY lucky, they may even line up with the
> Prius-specific CAN codes.
> I also have access to a CAN "expert" (he deveops and teaches
technical
> courses for one of the "big three").

Cool! Larry has said he may have access to a Honda CAN expert also!

> If course, if someone makes the "leap" for a THHT and can manage to
> get Toyota software . . .

If Wayne's rumor of a $600 THHT is accurate, there may be some
people willing to spring for one. That's a little too much for my
current budget, however (hey, I just bought a new car!).

>
> Got a VIN, just waiting for "my ship" to come in,

Even though the dealer had nearly a perfect prediction for me, I
still didn't have the garage cleaned when I got the call!!!

- Ken

--- In Prius_Miniscanner_MarkIII@yahoogroups.com, "mwbueno"
<wbrown@p...> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am way too busy these days to even think about being one of the
> drivers here but, I do want to accept the invitation to join and
add
> my support when & where I can.  I really, really would like to
have
> access to the kind of information that the Miniscanners afford us.
>
> Regards,
> Wayne

Thanks for your encouragement Wayne. We are all looking forward to
the cool info we will soon be gathering!

- Ken

Two thoughts...

First - My personal wish is to see MK-III be much like the current
Miniscanner: stand-alone operation and the ability to "dump" selected
data via USB or RS-232.  However... If Dave can deliver us a
video/touch interface to the MD, so much the better.  After several
days of playing with the MD from the Gen 2 car, AND having access to
80% of the schematics, Jeff and I decided that true "video" was just
burried way too deep in the package.  Yes, we successfully hacked his
for the night vision and rear camera (as well as Gameboy) but it
wasn't pretty - right Dave?
Still waiting 04 schematics...

Second - This is EXTREMELY tentative but I "may" be able to back-door
HSD CAN codes.  If I am VERY lucky, they may even line up with the
Prius-specific CAN codes.
I also have access to a CAN "expert" (he deveops and teaches technical
courses for one of the "big three").
If course, if someone makes the "leap" for a THHT and can manage to
get Toyota software . . .

Got a VIN, just waiting for "my ship" to come in,
BP

Hi All,

I am way too busy these days to even think about being one of the
drivers here but, I do want to accept the invitation to join and add
my support when & where I can.  I really, really would like to have
access to the kind of information that the Miniscanners afford us.

Regards,
Wayne

Copied from my post in Prius Technical Stuff...

Miniscanner Mk III (standalone device to show selected values real-
time)
--------------
In order to implement the new miniscanner, we will need either a new
THHT or the Full scanner below with decoded messages.
People are still discussing the merits of different microcontrollers
for this project with the following results -
Zilog: judged by Graham to not have good enough support
Microchip PIC: Proposed by Urs, has wide acceptance and several CAN
offerings
Atmel AVR: Proposed by Bill P, seconded by Graham, has great low-
cost tools, and CAN offering available soon.
Motorola HCS08, HCS12: Proposed by Tom, very well established, tools
available. Moto produces more automotive CAN controllers than
anybody. (Disclosure: I work for Metrowerks, a subsidiary of
Motorola.)

I'm sure none of us has the money to singlehandedly fund a R+D effort
to create such a low-volume low-price product.

My vision is to create a design, have someone collect deposits for
solid orders, and then make a bulk purchase of PCBs and other parts,
and maybe assembly.

I am guessing a run of about 50 when starting out...

What are your ideas?

- Ken