Edgar,

Welcome, you should have told me you were interested, I'll let you see
my install and take a ride.  BTW for everyone else on this list I know
Edgar locally here in Tampa Florida.

Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martinez, Edgardo [mailto:EMARTINE@...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:03 AM
> To: 'allan@...'; 'DSM_water_injection@onelist.com'
> Subject: [DSM_water_injection] Re: Advise
>
>
> From: "Martinez, Edgardo" <EMARTINE@...>
>
> I am also interested in a system but have always been afraid
> of pumping
> water into my engine.  I have a 91 FWD TSI and a Supercharged
> Mustang.  Are
> there any negative side effects in using WI??  Thanks
>
> Edgar Martinez
> Coordinator
> Office of Financial Aid
> University of South Florida
> EMARTINE@...
> GO BULLS!!!
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: allan@... [SMTP:allan@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:06 AM
> > To: DSM_water_injection@onelist.com
> > Subject: [DSM_water_injection] Advise
> >
> > Just joined the list and looking to purchae a water
> injection system for
> > my 1G Talon AWD TSI with a host of mods including a ported
> 16G, Greddy
> > Profec A, and Alamo Side mount IC and upper IC pipe.  Thanks.
> >
> > Allan Shutt
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site!
> http://www.onelist.com
> Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange
>

I am also interested in a system but have always been afraid of pumping
water into my engine.  I have a 91 FWD TSI and a Supercharged Mustang.  Are
there any negative side effects in using WI??  Thanks

Edgar Martinez
Coordinator
Office of Financial Aid
University of South Florida
EMARTINE@...
GO BULLS!!!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: allan@... [SMTP:allan@...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:06 AM
> To: DSM_water_injection@onelist.com
> Subject: [DSM_water_injection] Advise
>
> Just joined the list and looking to purchae a water injection system for
> my 1G Talon AWD TSI with a host of mods including a ported 16G, Greddy
> Profec A, and Alamo Side mount IC and upper IC pipe.  Thanks.
>
> Allan Shutt

Just joined the list and looking to purchae a water injection system for my 1G
Talon AWD TSI with a host of mods including a ported 16G, Greddy Profec A, and
Alamo Side mount IC and upper IC pipe.  Thanks.

Allan Shutt

Mike S wrote:

I'd like to get one of those fiber optic cameras and take a look
around the cylinders before and every 100 miles or so after.  I bet
they're expensive though...

There is a tool  called "borescope" that some mechanics have that you
can stick in the spark plug hole (kind of like a compression tester) and
peak in there. It is a wide angle view so you can see if the bore is
scratched up, the top of the piston has deposits and the bottom of the
valves. That tool is about $2000. Few shops have them. They prefer to
take the head off and charge YOU.

For access to a fiber optic camera, you need to know a surgeon really
well and convince him to let you use his $5,000,000 camera. Make sure
you don't break it !!

As far as the pressurization of the water tank, right after the turbo is
fine as the boost is highest there. BUT it's also fairly low in height
(or altitude). Remember that the tank should be at least 2 " below any
hose, because the "high pressure" turbo elbow is only under pressure
when under boost, the rest of the time it is under vacuum. You sure
don't want to suck up any water then. So be careful. My tank is vertical
and the garden hose is elevated up to the hood level. If I were to fill
it up to that level, most of the water would end up in the I/C pipe
before I even started to boost !

The clean up of the valve deposits occur as follows: That gook is baked
on and carbon based. The water has a very high Cp (which is the ability
to store heat, or the resistance to change temperature). The water is
lower in temperature than the air / fuel mixture. So, when it gets in
contact with the deposits, it shocks them thermally, creates cracks in
them and makes them fritter away. Also, water droplets are heavy
(compared to molecules of air), they hit the carbon deposits and bombard
them. It's the same principle as a sand blaster. So one way or the
other, water will clean your engine.

Alain

Hey all,

I've setup a webpage for the list at
http://www.stegbauer.com/DSM_water_injection .
There isn't actually much on it, but I'll try to dig up some links as
time permits.


Sander Pool <sander@...> wrote:
>
> From: Sander Pool <sander@...>
>
>
> Scott wrote:
>
> > 3)  Pressure just after the turbo is very high (small elbow
diameter).
> > Would WI occur if the pressure is higher there than on the manifold
> side???
>

The smaller diameter doesn't cause a pressure increase, it causes the
air to flow faster through that section.

> For the Spearco system to work you need to pressurize the tank with
> whatever pressure the nozzle is subjected to. This means you'd have to
> tap two holes in the turbo outlet elbow. One for the nozzle and one to
> pressurize the tank.

This is a great reason to pressurize the tank before the IC, and
inject after... as previously mentioned, the pressure drop across the
IC helps push the water (and the pressure drop increases with boost).

Either way I'd "T" the WG tap in the turbo outlet elbow to pressurize
the tank.



> From what I've heard water injection is great
> to clean those up or at least inhibit them from forming. Word was that
> the act of evaporating water in the combustion chamber helped to break
> up carbon.

My understanding is that the steam does most of the cleaning.
Certainly this must be the case with the exhaust valves.  Anybody else
heard a theory on this?

I'm hoping for a good cleaning too.  I had lots of carbon build up
after my flaky crank angle sensor and I'm sure there is still quite a
bit on the valves and the high edge of the pistons.

I'd like to get one of those fiber optic cameras and take a look
around the cylinders before and every 100 miles or so after.  I bet
they're expensive though...


Mike

Scott wrote:

> 3)  Pressure just after the turbo is very high (small elbow diameter).
> Would WI occur if the pressure is higher there than on the manifold
side???

For the Spearco system to work you need to pressurize the tank with
whatever pressure the nozzle is subjected to. This means you'd have to
tap two holes in the turbo outlet elbow. One for the nozzle and one to
pressurize the tank.

As far as placement of the nozzle goes, it seems that no matter where
you inject water in the system you're going to end up with the same end
temperature. The only difference is how various systems react to water
in different forms. Mixing water particles with the air/gas mixture in
the cylinder has a different effect then providing moister cooler air
(inject water right after the turbo).

My original reason for getting the kit was to clean the cylinders. I
don't have a heavily modded car (3" exhaust, UIC pipe, K&N, the usual
beginners mods) so I am not expecting huge gains. I am hoping to get rid
of some carbon deposits. From what I've heard water injection is great
to clean those up or at least inhibit them from forming. Word was that
the act of evaporating water in the combustion chamber helped to break
up carbon. That would mean that I need to put my injector close to the
TB. To simply reduce intake charge temperature I'd place the injector
farther away to give that water a chance to evaporate and cool the air.

If someone is afraid of water remaining in the intake tract when the car
is off simply turn of your WI kit the last bit of your drive. I'd
suspect that even modest driving evaporates most water pretty quickly.

	 Sander (95 GSX)

Josh Wingell wrote:

> I also have a new Black Panther 800 cold cranking amps battery
> heading my way.  This is that small model I was talking about
> earlier.  I ordered it yesterday.  Hopefully it will let
> me mount the water injection tank next to it on the battery
> tray.
>
> I think I will have to extend either the ground or +12V wires
> so that they will reach the new battery's posts.

I just ordered the same battery from Jegs,  They told me it won't be
shipped until April 15th as they will arrive that same day from the
vendor.  As I autoX I'll need to find a way to strap it down securely.
Thanx for the suggestion in the first place.  Now to go order a FPR so I
can fix my idle.

Cheers

JimZ

>Strange that the water pump drains your battery instantly like that. The
>fuse is 3 amps, meaning it only takes probably 1 or 2 amps to run the
>thing.

Yea, I know.  Its bizarre.

The only electrical system mods I have made are a TRE MASC, a Valentine
One, a light for my VDO boost gauge, an LED for the boost solenoid,
an LED for the water injection, and a POS cyberdyne O2 voltage meter
(well,
it looks good anyway).  Oh, and the fuel pump rewire.

Perhaps the water injection motor is just the straw that broke the
camels back?

>When you crank your car, a good battery will go down to about
>10.8 volts, and I assure you the starter pulls a lot more energy than
>the scrawny water pump.

On a VERY cold day 2 months ago, my car just didn't want to start up.
It took a whole lot of cranking and the battery wasn't doing such
a great job.  However, normally it works out just fine.

>I would look at the alternator/voltage regulator
>to insure a healthy electrical system first.That's was my $0.02 worth.

I certainly hope that the battery does its job since this isn't the
kind of problem I can take to the dealership.  "Oh, yea, my water
injection system makes my Valentine One go wonky."

My car has never died.  It starts every day.  So I would imagine that
the charging system is working just fine.  Although I am not real
familiar with the various stages of alternator death.

When it is very wet out, my car will tend to have its voltage dip at
idle.  My old radar detector had a nice voltage readout when
you held down a certain button when you turned it on (Bel 855STi).
Too bad it sucked for a radar detector.

Under full load (WOT), does the alternator take complete charge of the
electrical system?  Or does the battery also take some of
the load?

Josh
'97 Eclipse GSX

Josh

Strange that the water pump drains your battery instantly like that. The
fuse is 3 amps, meaning it only takes probably 1 or 2 amps to run the
thing. When you crank your car, a good battery will go down to about
10.8 volts, and I assure you the starter pulls a lot more energy than
the scrawny water pump. I would look at the alternator/voltage regulator
to insure a healthy electrical system first.That's was my $0.02 worth.

Let us know how you like the gel cell battery.

Alain

You may recall my post to the digest regarding my problem with
voltage droop on my electrical system when using the water
injection.  Well, I rewired my water ijection system so that
it is wired directly to battery rather than a source in the
cockpit.

Well, I still get the same voltage droop (accompanied by a
Laser warning from my Valentine One...thats just what happens
to a V1 when the voltage drops too low).  I have a feeling
that my battery (2 years old and stock) is just on its way out.

I had to turn off the water injection because the V1 laser warnings
just kept on getting more and more frequent.  I have my fuel pump
rewired to get its current directly from the battery through
a 10ga wire.  Well, it is pointless to have it rewired when the
voltage of the entire car is dropping due to a water injection
motor turning on.  I was worried about my engine since this happens
only when I am at WOT.

So, I have a new Walbro 255L/hr fuel pump (just $99 from
www.houstonmotorsports.com !).  I'll be installing that tomorrow.
I also have a new Black Panther 800 cold cranking amps battery
heading my way.  This is that small model I was talking about
earlier.  I ordered it yesterday.  Hopefully it will let
me mount the water injection tank next to it on the battery
tray.

I think I will have to extend either the ground or +12V wires
so that they will reach the new battery's posts.

Josh Wingell
'97 Eclipse GSX

Josh Wingell <wingell@...> wrote:
>
>
> Having the water change to steam before it hits the intercooler
> may cool down the air charge.  I am not sure about how much,
> though.  And there is a chance that the steam may condense on
> the intercooler fins which would mean that the water isn't
> getting to the combustion chamber at all.  Plus, who wants an
> intercooler full of water with no way to drain it?

Nah!  If the 100mph+ airflow can push engine oil through the
intercooler, it can certainly push water through.  Plus, any water
that condenses out will drop back into the inlet where it will get
revaporized sooner or later.  The real question is when the water
makes it to the TB relative to when you *thought* it would make it to
the TB.

>
> As an aside, if people are worried about water draining into
> their intake from the water tank, just run the hose from the
> pump up over the level of the water and then back down and over
> to the injector.
>
> This S in the hose should stop the water from draining.
> At least I think so :-)  Any plumbing experts on the list? ;-)
>

I don't think this would help, and it might even hurt.
It's likely that water would get stuck in the "U" section of the hose
when the pump shut off.  It would likely sit at a higher level than a
single rise because it has nowhere to drain back to.
Let me whip out my ASCII art talents and show you what I mean...


Tradition setup:

    ----------      /INJ
    |        |     |
    |        |     |
    |wwwwwwww|     |w
    |wwwwwwww|     |w
    |wwwwwwww|     |w                     (w=water)
    |wwwwwwww|     |w
    ----------    /w
           PP-----



alternate setup:


    ----------      /-------\       /INJ
    |        |     |         |w    |w
    |        |     |         |w    |w
    |wwwwwwww|     |w        |w    |w
    |wwwwwwww|     |w        |w    |w
    |wwwwwwww|     |w        |w    |w
    |wwwwwwww|     |w        \-----/
    ----------    /w           wwww
           PP-----



Just a theory...

It was mentioned that Colby Leaonard runs his h2O nozzle before the
turbo. He may have in the past , but last I heard he runs it at the
throttle body. As the turbo spins at 100,00 rpm, I am not sure I want
solid particles (water) to hit the blades. It will cool them all right,
it's called thermal shock, as well as physical shock. The turbo will
last about 6 months. Then the water vapor (steam) will travel into the
I/C, gte down to 120 deg F, and become liquid again. OOPS ! how is the
liquid water going up the pipe into the manifold ? I guess some of it
is, but what about the rest ? I don't want to put a drain plug at the
bottom of the I/C.

Hey Mike S. the reason I had the nozzle inside the car was not because I
had the system installed wrong, it was just for testing  ...........
and to see if you were awake !!

And you, Scott, accusing me of hitting the bottle, you better hide under
your rock or I will call your parole officer  !

Regards

Alain

The problem with injecting the water before the intercooler
is that the air after the turbo can get EXTREMELY hot!
This hot air will change the water particles into steam.

This is not really what you want.

What you want is water particles that enter the combustion
chamber.  THEN as combustion takes place, the water particles
are turned into steam.  This change from water to steam
takes a lot of energy and cools the combustion significantly.
This leads to lower EGTs, so you can lean out the mixture a bit.
You can lean out the mixture because the ECU was using extra
fuel to cool the combustion.  Now the water will cool the
mixture.

Having the water change to steam before it hits the intercooler
may cool down the air charge.  I am not sure about how much,
though.  And there is a chance that the steam may condense on
the intercooler fins which would mean that the water isn't
getting to the combustion chamber at all.  Plus, who wants an
intercooler full of water with no way to drain it?

You get power from water injection in 2 ways.  The first is
that it stops knock so that the knock sensor will not cause
the ECU to retard timing.  In essence, you are raising the
octane of the mixture.  The second is that you can now lean
out the mixture more and gain power.

As an aside, if people are worried about water draining into
their intake from the water tank, just run the hose from the
pump up over the level of the water and then back down and over
to the injector.

This S in the hose should stop the water from draining.
At least I think so :-)  Any plumbing experts on the list? ;-)

Josh
'97 Eclipse GSX

I've heard that injecting into the turbo will cause premature corrosion of
the compressor wheel though.  I'm not sure how the corrosion takes place, so
maybe some mechanical engineer or chemist can better answer that question.

Warren

> -----Original Message-----
> From: McDonnell, Stephen [mailto:SMcDonnell@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:51 AM
> To: DSM_water_injection@onelist.com
> Subject: [DSM_water_injection] Re: Digest Number 1
>
> Well if my memory serves me correctly, isn't it Colby Leonard that
> injects the water BEFORE THE TURBO, he claims it cooled the turbo
> dramatically.  The only drawback he found was if the injector came on to
> early it caused more lag.  So the solution was to turn on at higher
> boost.  IMO this would completely atomize the water, spinning thru the
> super hot turbo would vaporize the water instantly.  Has anyone else
> tried this?  I seems like it could be worth a shot and upgrading to a
> high pressure pump wouldn't be as necessary as it will be atomized
> already.
>
> Any thoughts on this....?
>
> Steve

>I have been having second thoughts about the condensation of water in
the
>IC.  Part of the benefit of WI is allowing the water vapor to cool the
>intake charge.  If the water is injected right at the TB elbow (where
mine
>is too) then there won't be any time for that water to expand.   Recall
>that Spearco suggests that the WI occur before the IC.

>If the injection occurs just after the turbo, the water will be
vaporized
>immediately (by the 300F temperature).  This vaporization will
immediately
>pull a lot of heat out of the intake charge.

>And would the IC really condense the water out of the air?  I don't
know.

Well if my memory serves me correctly, isn't it Colby Leonard that
injects the water BEFORE THE TURBO, he claims it cooled the turbo
dramatically.  The only drawback he found was if the injector came on to
early it caused more lag.  So the solution was to turn on at higher
boost.  IMO this would completely atomize the water, spinning thru the
super hot turbo would vaporize the water instantly.  Has anyone else
tried this?  I seems like it could be worth a shot and upgrading to a
high pressure pump wouldn't be as necessary as it will be atomized
already.

Any thoughts on this....?

Steve

Alain Michot <hoturbo@...> wrote:
>

>
> AQUAMIST has a very nice 12v pump. And it costs
> only $420! Just what we need.

This is a cool pump.  From what I gather, it is a piston type pump and
it has an (0-12V?) input which changes the RPMs.  This reportedly
allows them to control the flow without affecting the pressure.

> When I came home I was wet as a duck as the water had
> squirted all over me.

I'm usually not one to criticize, but I think you may have it hooked
up wrong.    ;-)

Alain Michot wrote...
>
>I put a lighted rocker switch inside the car so that I can turn the WI
>on / off. No need for an LED, when the system comes on, the switch
>lights up. It comes on at 5 psi while accelerating and stops at about 2
>psi while deccelerating. I use the #2 nozzle at the throttle body. I
>thought about putting the nozzle before the intercooler and decided
>against it for the following reasons: I put 2 thermocouples in the
>intercooler pipes, one before and one after the I/C. Under boost (16G,
>18psi) the air temp goes over 300 Deg F right after the turbo. The I/C
>(Alamo upgraded side mount) cools the air down to about 120 Deg F. Which
>means that the water would probably vaporize (or at least some of it)
>then turn into liquid again, thus hanging around the I/c for a while.
>What we need is atomized liquid water injected into the intake manifold.
>The best place is right before the Throttle body to insure a uniform
>distribution of H2O to each cylinder.

I have been having second thoughts about the condensation of water in the
IC.  Part of the benefit of WI is allowing the water vapor to cool the
intake charge.  If the water is injected right at the TB elbow (where mine
is too) then there won't be any time for that water to expand.   Recall
that Spearco suggests that the WI occur before the IC.

If the injection occurs just after the turbo, the water will be vaporized
immediately (by the 300F temperature).  This vaporization will immediately
pull a lot of heat out of the intake charge.

And would the IC really condense the water out of the air?  I don't know.

Benefits of injecting water at the turbo elbow:

1)  Better atomization from the VERY turbulent air and hot (evaporation
leads to further atomization) air.

2)  More time to cool the intake charge.

3)  Better distribution of water in the intake charge

4)  Shorter hose length for those of us with the WI reservoir located near
the windshield wiper bottle.  The longer the hose the longer that water is
delayed because the water goes back to the reservoir after boost turns to
vacuum.

Detriments:

1)   Possible condensation of water in the IC.

2)  Turbo outlet is small...would the nozzle cause a significant restriction?

3)  Pressure just after the turbo is very high (small elbow diameter).
Would WI occur if the pressure is higher there than on the manifold side???

Food for thought.

This could be tested.  Simply (haha) drill and tap the turbo outlet elbow
and measure the temperatures again.  Then the IC would have to be pulled
after driving to see if there is water in there.  I know that Alain has
time to do this if he can just put down the bottle long enough!!!

:-)

-Scott

Hey gang

I know a buddy who relocated his battery to the back on his 95 Talon.
The H2O tank sits where the battery used to be. Easy access and short
hoses make it a very nice set up. Make sure that the level of water is
way below the nozzle, especially on a curvy road or road race. I
understand that water does not compress very well in the combustion
chamber.

AQUAMIST has a very nice 12v pump. And it costs only $420 ! Just what we
need.

The PEP BOYS one that I tried is model # 11-601 ($20). But don't tell
anyone, it's made for Hondas !

It's a little fatter than the Spearco and it has 2 wires about 3 inches
long. Much easier to connect/disconnect. It seems to pump more too. The
reason I put the original back on is that I have the #2 nozzle on. So I
don't want to squirt too much water. I tried to hold the nozzle in my
hand as I routed a long piece of clear tubing into the cabin. Under
boost, it was squirting pretty well. The nozzle is such that the water
hits the horizontal plate on the bottom of the nozzle and spreads and
ricochets into the air flow. It's their version of atomization. It's a
bit crude but it seems to work. My car seems to push harder and
detonation is gone.  I tried both PEP BOYS and the Spearco pump and the
PEP BOYS had a bit more oomph. When I came home I was wet as a duck as
the water had squirted  all over me. I decided to install the Spearco
pump for the time being.

I will be hitting the 1/4 mile track very soon, we shall see if the
numbers have changed. My best time last Nov. was 12.996 at 107.

Alain

Anybody else get the feeling that the vacuum hose and port provided is
way to small to pressurize even 25% of that tank quickly enough?   I
think I might use my extra nipple to hook up a boost guage and see how
much it lags.

BTW, my car is in the shop, so this is all theory for me until
(hopefully) this weekend.



> Hi all!  How many folks are on this list?
>

12 as of this morning.

>
> I tried a larger pump (PEP BOYS) and it appeared to push
> more water.
>

Don't tease us...  Cost?  Part number?

>
> I put the Spearco pump back on. It seems to bring more power.
>

You mean the PepBoys pumps more, but the Spearco seems to work better?

>
> So, I mounted the pump at the bottom of the tank.
> Unfortunately, the hose has a long way to travel before it
> hits my throttle body elbow and the injector.  It seems to
> lose some pressure along the way.

In theory, it shouldn't matter where the pump is as long as it's below
the level of water.  Gravity will cause the water to push through to
the same level in the hose as in the tank, so the pump shouldn't have
to pump at all.  This is why the tank (and not the pump) has to be
mounted 2" below the needle.  As a matter of fact, there should be
water in the hose beyond the pump after pumping.

The hose itself probably provides some restriction, but I doubt it's
much compared to the needle itself.  Sounds like another experiment in
the making...   ;-)

> Hopefully the pressure drop across the intercooler will
> help to push water through that hose under boost.

This bring up an interesting point.  It seems like it would be
possible to build a cheap kit with no pump by using the rising
pressure drop across the intercooler (which I believe gets pretty
significant on the stock IC).

>
> hey are just 6x7.5x4.5"

Heck, you could probably lie down and set the water tank on top
of it (or vice versa).  Maybe a nice rubber pad (mouse pad?) between
the two would be appropriate...

>
> The only problem is figuring out how to securely mount a
> battery so small.

Duct tape!



Cheers,
Mike

>Any perfect fit battery mounting kits for 1G's?

The only battery mount kit that I found was a Moroso one,
and the damn thing is HUGE!

The problem is that since we have hatchbacks and do not
have a trunk, we need to have a certain type of battery
box in order to race at NHRA/IHRA tracks.  The Moroso
unit is approved by the NHRA/IHRA, but it is MUCH larger
than I would need for the battery I want to get.  Not
to mention that the battery I want to get is sealed
anyway!

So, I am looking into gettin a Black Panther battery.
These suckers crank out some mega amps.  They are completely
sealed and have a metal case. They are also a deep cycle
battery that can start your car just fine AND they are SMALL!

They are just 6x7.5x4.5" (I think that is right).
Since they are sealed, they can be mounted in ANY position!
Even upside-down.  Given the flexibility of this battery, you
can see that you can probably mount both the battery and the
water injection kit on the battery tray :-)  At least I hope so.
I need to do some measuring.

Another plus is that they weigh just 21lbs.  About half of
a normal battery's weight.  The only problem is figuring
out how to securely mount a battery so small.

You can get them at Jegs for $139.  That Moroso kit I talked
about is $89.  So, after adding a new battery to that $89
price, I am so close to the $139 price anyway.

More info at www.blackpanther.com

And no, I have no relation to this company.  It just seems
like a kick-ass product.

Josh Wingell
'97 Eclipse GSX

> I *thought* I felt a difference.  Well, it was all placebo.

Been there done that.. :)

> So, I mounted the pump at the bottom of the tank.  Unfortunately,
> the hose has a long way to travel before it hits my throttle
> body elbow and the injector.  It seems to lose some pressure
> along the way.  When the car was off and I was looking at
> the injector in the TB elbow, the water just sort of dribbled
> out of the injector.

My pump and tank are right under the upper I/C pipe above the tranny
mount and I have my injector plumbed into the throttle body.  Well My
hose is about 9 inches long and I have the same problems you do, i.e.
dribble, for some piece of mind for you... blow into the top or pressure
side of the tank and run the pump again you get a slightly better spray,
and when the car is under more than 1.5-2 psi of mouth boost you can
imagine it's going to be a bit better.  But I agree the pump sux and it
will be one of the 1st upgrades I do to this system.

> That being said, does anyone know of a company that sells water
> pumps that run off of +12V?  I want to spend less than $50.  But
> I figure that even if I spend $50, the pump will be 10x better
> than the POS I got with the kit!

I checked Grainger, I don't see anything worthy of use, they're all big
and expensive.  Anyone have a new McMaster-Carr book?

Steve

Ok, so I installed the water injection last week.
I *thought* I felt a difference.  Well, it was all placebo.
You see, my tank is mounted vertically, under the coolant
reservoir.  I mounted the pump at the top of the tank.

MISTAKE!  I didn't have time to test the system out.
And the connectors that the water injection kit come with
just makes it difficult to mess with once you have it
set up.

It turns out that if you have the pump mounted at the top of
the tank, the hose going to it and going from it both have air
in them.  If the pump starts to run, it has to pump air before
it pumps water.  Well, the pump doesn't pump air very well.
In fact, if there is air in it, it just froths the water
once it gets there.  So it did not have the pressure to
pump the water up to the TB elbow.  I wasn't injecting anything
at all into the intake.

So, I mounted the pump at the bottom of the tank.  Unfortunately,
the hose has a long way to travel before it hits my throttle
body elbow and the injector.  It seems to lose some pressure
along the way.  When the car was off and I was looking at
the injector in the TB elbow, the water just sort of dribbled
out of the injector.  I tried to wire the pump both ways.  One
was was better than the other but not by much.

I understand that the turbulence of the air will help out a
bit while the car is running.  Also, I have the tank pressure
hose hooked up to the turbo, *before* the intercooler.
Hopefully the pressure drop across the intercooler will
help to push water through that hose under boost.

The fault of this system really is that crappy pump.  I am sure
that if we wire up a better pump to the system, the system would
work *much* better.

That being said, does anyone know of a company that sells water
pumps that run off of +12V?  I want to spend less than $50.  But
I figure that even if I spend $50, the pump will be 10x better
than the POS I got with the kit!

Also, I should note that I am running 1/3 91% isopropyl alcohol
and 2/3 distilled water.  This mixture does not freeze.  I expect
that even 1/4 alcohol will not freeze.  Freezing is my main
concern at the moment.

Josh Wingell
'97 Eclipse GSX

I have a 1G with a front mount and anti-lock.  I can't fit the tank next
to the wiper fluid container and there is not enough room where the old
intercooler was as the piping for the FM goes through that area.  I've
thought about relocating the battery to the rear of the car which would
give me a great mounting location and easy refill capabilities.  Any
thoughts on this?

Any perfect fit battery mounting kits for 1G's?

Cheers

JimZ

Hello water gulpers

Thanks to Koo, I got my Spearco WI system for a better price. I ran into
the same problems as the other guys: One fitting missing and vague
instructions. The pump has to be below the tank in order to get primed
by gravity, otherwise it will cavitate, churning up air.

I put a lighted rocker switch inside the car so that I can turn the WI
on / off. No need for an LED, when the system comes on, the switch
lights up. It comes on at 5 psi while accelerating and stops at about 2
psi while deccelerating. I use the #2 nozzle at the throttle body. I
thought about putting the nozzle before the intercooler and decided
against it for the following reasons: I put 2 thermocouples in the
intercooler pipes, one before and one after the I/C. Under boost (16G,
18psi) the air temp goes over 300 Deg F right after the turbo. The I/C
(Alamo upgraded side mount) cools the air down to about 120 Deg F. Which
means that the water would probably vaporize (or at least some of it)
then turn into liquid again, thus hanging around the I/c for a while.
What we need is atomized liquid water injected into the intake manifold.
The best place is right before the Throttle body to insure a uniform
distribution of H2O to each cylinder.

I mounted the water reservoir horizontally below the windshield  washer
tank, using tie wraps. A piece of HI TECH garden hose reaches through
the metal so that I can fill it up easily. I, too wired the pump
backwards it seems to spew more water that way. I used transparent hose
from the pump to the throttle body so I can disconnect the nozzle and do
my testing. I tried a larger pump (PEP BOYS) and it appeared to push
more water. I put the Spearco pump back on. It seems to bring more
power. We shall see at the drag strip.

Also, use only distilled water. You don't want solid minerals to hang
around the valves.

Alain
V8Whooper

12.996 @ 107

Hi all!  How many folks are on this list?  I finished my Spearco WI kit in
the middle of last week.  Haven't noticed much difference yet although
everything seems to work properly.

If anyone has any install questions bring 'em on :-).

-Scott

This is a good idea.  I've got one of the $20 JC Whitney kits on my
motorcyle... there is a lag, but I'd say it's less than a 1/4 second.
I don't know how much pressure it produces.

How do you plan to shut the flow off?





arl6425@... wrote:
>
> From: arl6425@...
>
> A few people have mentioned using the stock fuel pump as an upgrade
for the system.  Most people have a stocker lying around.  I am going
to go, for now at least, a slightly different route.  I am going to
use an air pump to pressurize the water tank to about 50-60psi
instantly when the unit kicks in.  This is going to be accomplished by
a pump from one of those cheap air horns.  I put one of these on my
friends car a long time ago and they will stand up for a good long
time.  By doing this I won't ever have a vacuume in the system to
overcome and it should make the water flow pretty damn hard.  On
another note I am also going to use a different pressure sensor
switch. I can get much higher quality ones that are smaller and much
easier to adjust .5psi - 30psi trigger.  They cost about $40 but in
the end I think it will work MUCH better.
>
> Aaron
> MrMoo
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We have a new web site!
> http://www.onelist.com
> Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services
>

A few people have mentioned using the stock fuel pump as an upgrade for the
system.  Most people have a stocker lying around.  I am going to go, for now at
least, a slightly different route.  I am going to use an air pump to pressurize
the water tank to about 50-60psi instantly when the unit kicks in.  This is
going to be accomplished by a pump from one of those cheap air horns.  I put one
of these on my friends car a long time ago and they will stand up for a good
long time.  By doing this I won't ever have a vacuume in the system to overcome
and it should make the water flow pretty damn hard.  On another note I am also
going to use a different pressure sensor switch. I can get much higher quality
ones that are smaller and much easier to adjust .5psi - 30psi trigger.  They
cost about $40 but in the end I think it will work MUCH better.

Aaron
MrMoo

tkkhoo@... wrote:
>
> From: tkkhoo@...
>
> I am thinking of changing the pump to a higher capacity one,
> any comments?

Higher capacity or higher pressure?

> And I intend to use the No.2 injector once my 16g
> is ported.

Remember, the water flow should be roughly proportional to fuel flow
(or air flow).  Having a different turbo shouldn't make much
difference (at a given PSI).  (All else being equal, the cooler 15psi
from the 16G will have a few more air molecules than 15psi from a 14B.)

>
> I have wired a LED to the pressure switch to indicate when the WI is
running and I found that mine seems to be coming on quite later ie 0.5
bar. I have tried to make it come on earlier but it only improved a
bit at my units was only coming on at 0.55 bar >previously.

You mean you can't get it to come on lower than ~8psi at all?
It sounds like these pressure switches are pretty inconsistent.

>
> I've got 3 other friends which bought the WI kits also (1 Impreza
WRX STi Version II, 1 Mazda RX7 Efini TT and 1 Fiat Coupe Turbo).
Everyone of them was impressed with the performance.
>

That's good to hear.  Do you know what injector, boost and 'water on'
pressure each of them is running?

I am thinking of changing the pump to a higher capacity one, any comments? And I
intend to use the No.2 injector once my 16g is ported.

I have wired a LED to the pressure switch to indicate when the WI is running and
I found that mine seems to be coming on quite later ie 0.5 bar. I have tried to
make it come on earlier but it only improved a bit at my units was only coming
on at 0.55 bar previously.

I've got 3 other friends which bought the WI kits also (1 Impreza WRX STi
Version II, 1 Mazda RX7 Efini TT and 1 Fiat Coupe Turbo). Everyone of them was
impressed with the performance.

Regards
IRC: fastcar

I am thinking of changing the pump to a higher capacity one, any comments? And I
intend to use the No.2 injector once my 16g is ported.

I have wired a LED to the pressure switch to indicate when the WI is running and
I found that mine seems to be coming on quite later ie 0.5 bar. I have tried to
make it come on earlier but it only improved a bit at my units was only coming
on at 0.55 bar previously.

I've got 3 other friends which bought the WI kits also (1 Impreza WRX STi
Version II, 1 Mazda RX7 Efini TT and 1 Fiat Coupe Turbo). Everyone of them was
impressed with the performance.

Regards
IRC: fastcar